Patrina's Method of waking up old seeds etc- how!

[michael johnson]

I read a short while ago that Patrina has a very good method of waking up old seeds or even germinating new ones, I would like to know a little more detail of exactly how this is done.

After you have put the seeds on top of the cotton in the ziplock poly bags, ( do you actualy mean cotton wool) or a piece of flat cotton material.

after they show signs of germination how long do you leave them on top of the material to sprout further or do you remove them straight away with a pair of plastic tongs (small pair) onto the suitable compost etc etc.

as I am very interested to try this method out- as are probably lots of others too.

[kimpossible]

Michael, I don't know what Patrina does after they have germinated (the thread is "Carolyn's Older Seeds from Seed Share - Sep 07/06), but I have used this method before (works well for germination tests for percentage viable). I use paper towel (off the roll). I use a good quality one that doesn't tear when wet (stays more like a cloth). Here the brand is Bounty. I fold it in quarters. I mist the towel until quite damp, but not so damp that water drips from it. I put the seeds inside the folded towel - so there is contact front & back. I put the towel into a ziplock plastic sandwich bag, sealed, in a warm location, or with about 75F/23C bottom heat. I watch for excessive moisture build up & will unseal the bag if needed. Usually germination is quite rapid. As soon as the little root appears, I transplant, as gently as possible into a find moist soiless seed-starting mix. I just use my fingers. I think using any tweezers or other instrument would damage the tender root.

[Polar_Lace]

Is this what you were looking for Michael? Carolyn's older seeds from seed-share

[michael johnson]

thanks-Both of you, I must try this method this coming season, I will probably use the paper towels rather than the cotton wool as I fear the tiny roots may get caught in the cotton material and snap off.

Its simply that I couldnt quite see any reference previously as to how long they were left in the ziplock bags before removal to a growing medium-its an interesting method and I hope to try it this coming season.

[Patrina_Pepperina]

Michael, sorry for the delay in answering. I like Polar Lace's idea, might try it, since skipping pre-germination is not working for me at all!

So, to answer you on the type of cotton, I use Dove squares (actually rectangles) folded over with the seeds in between. These Dove cotton squares have a kind of non-woven cover that keeps all the fibres inside, and makes it difficult for the roots to get thru, particularly if the little baggies are not lying down flat. I used to stand the baggies inside a plastic pot that had heaps of drainage holes in it's floor, then stand this on my old lamp base that gave off heat. The heat would rise up into the pot and surround the vertical baggies. I'd place a piece of cardboard over the top of the pot as a lid.

I'd check for sprouts about twice a day. Once the seeds sprouted, I usually lifted them out with a toothpick, sometimes with my fingers, and planted them in seedling mix. I would usually just leave a small loop of the root at surface level. Then they went straight under the lamp that I was using as a heat source so they could get some light as they emerged. This worked brilliantly, and often gave me around 100% germination in just a few days!

Regrettably, this season's results have been poor again, and I'm now convinced it's because of skipping the pre-germination stage! And the ridiculous thing about it is that it's actually slower to skip pre-germination for me Out of all those older seeds I have a hand full of Golden Ponderosa, 3 Dixie Golden Giants, and a couple Mariette seedlings! That's in 3 whole weeks *sigh*

Patrina, annoyed with herself for not taking the time to do the little baggies, trying to cut corners!

[michael johnson]

Hi - Patrina, I am so glad you replied, I was begining to get a little worried in case you was ill or something.

Also I noticed in your original post on this that you were now using an electric blanket to warm the seeds, be very carefull with this as lots of people have electrocuted themselves trying to use electric blankets under large seed germination trays.

Your idea of using a tooth pick to winkle out the seeds sounds just right for me to try, as I imagine the little root shoot just hooks round the tooth pick and you can lift them out easily.

I was quite amused at the cute way Polar-Lace sticks the seed zip lock bags all over her fridge door, that way I suppose one can keep having a peek at them every time you go to use the fridge- very ingenious,

[Patrina_Pepperina]

Michael, I'm busy but otherwise fine, just not much time online. :wink:

The only downside I found with the pre-germination method is that the moisture level needs to be carefully monitored inside those little baggies. If the cotton pads are too wet, then the seeds can begin to rot before they germinate, both from lack of air and too much water. If there is too little moisture, the seeds don't germinate.

What they like most of all is cotton pads that are still light and fluffy, not wet and compacted, and the moisture is mostly distributed by the heat throughout the cotton, and therefore the seed between the folded pad stays moist too. Sometimes I used to spray a little water into the baggie when it seemed to be drying out from opening it a couple times a day when checking for sprouts.

The only advantage to using my method rather than Polar Lace's would be that the seeds are in the dark, which I believe they prefer. But I'll be trying her idea for sure.

Thanks for the warning about the electric blanket idea - I wasn't too keen on using it, but was desperate. I don't think I'll use it again because it was fairly inefficient. I placed the electric blanket between a folded vinyl table protector that has cotton backing, the idea being to make sure that no moisture could get to the electric blanket. The only trouble was it insulated the heat from the blanket too much and so it took ages to warm the trays. I MUST buy heat mats for next season!

Patrina

[username5]

Interesting, I have been using this method for some years now, but I learned of it first on Garden Web as the 'baggie method'. I have since forgotten who I learned it from or I would give credit where due.

The material of choice is a coffee filter rather than cotton or paper towels for a couple reasons. The first reason is that coffee filters are relatively non porous compared to cotton or paper towels therefore there is less risk of tiny taproots getting caught in the material.

The second reason is that a coffee filter doesn't really hold onto much water compared to cotton or paper towels (the latter of which is designed to absorb as much water as possible). Thus it is easier to simply wet the filter, squeeze it to remove excess water and it is at an ideal moisture level.

Many ways to skin a cat though.

This method has the advantage of being very quick to germinate seeds. I particularly like it for seeds that are slow, erratic germinators as this method seems to result in the germination taking place exponentially faster and all of the seeds germinate in a smaller window. I can certainly see why those of you working with old seed would find this method desirable.

[bbjm]

I'm going to try this, but have a few questions about what to do after root shows.

So the first sign of a root you move to the growing medium? Do you bury the seed root first? Just place it on top? Place it on top and sprinkle with growing medium?

[kimpossible]

When transplanting, I try to mimick what would happen if it were germinating in a seed-starting mix. I moisten the mix, fill the containers, create a depression/hole (using a pen), place the root in the depression, leaving the seed head at soil level, barely exposed, gently press the mix around the root for contact, then place under grow-lights.

[username5]

Originally Posted by bbjm

So the first sign of a root you move to the growing medium?

Yes, but it isn't like you *must* do it right away, the seedling is capable of surviving for quite some time in the moist material.

Do you bury the seed root first?

With most plants it isn't critical and they will reorient themselves as required, but yes, it is best to put the taprot down as this is how they wish to grow.

Just place it on top? Place it on top and sprinkle with growing medium?

I bury the seed the same depth as I would if it hadn't germinated already. So, if I would normally bury the seed 1/4", that is the depth I plant the seed, disregarding the taproot. In most cases I don't regard planting depth of the seed as critical though. If you are using a seed starting mix or potting mix it will be light and fluffy enough that you can plant way deep and it will still emerge which isn't true of planting in harder outside dirt.

My final advice is to avoid overthinking this. It really is easy and nearly fool proof so just put the seeds in a moist coffee filter, fold in halves twice to make a pie shape and tuck into a ziplock and seal. If the seed packet says 14 days until germination figure that you need to start daily checks around day 3 with this method as seeds germinate *much* faster in most cases.

One you have a taproot showing, just put the seed and root into a moist seed starting medium and from there treat them however you normally would.

There is really nothing to it and after doing it once you are an expert at it. If it makes you feel more comfortable, just go grab any old seed packet containing seed you could care less about and use it to test the waters. It's easy, it works and it is hard to screw up to the point of failure. If a seed won't germinate with this method it was a non viable seed to begin with.

[michael johnson]

It is true what Patrina says, in the fact that tomato seeds prefer to be germinated in the dark, and usualy germinate a lot better, according to most scientific studies on the fact, but you have to watch them more closely if you do this, as they seem to shoot up more quickly- two days too long, and you have a white stem and root shoot two inches long, rather than a compact germinating seed thats still managable.

Having said that- I have often had very good germination in full light conditions- in clear plastic covered seed trays with compost.

But I am definatly going to try the baggie method this spring- on most of my more stubborn seeds, or what I know to be older seeds, or for that matter- rare tomato seeds of which I have only 3-4 seeds to try to ensure a better success rate, as I only need about two plants to survive in order to multiply my rare seed a hundredfold at the end of the season from my own saved seeds.

Its a very usefull method indeed- I shall consider it one of the best tips on TV so far. :wink:

[carolyn137]

I have always had excellent luck germinating my own older seeds when I needed to wake them up to grow them out for fresh stock.

And I do nothing fancy.

Over the years Craig and I have tried many methods and what works best for me is what I've posted every time I've made a large seed offer of older seeds. To date I've offered around 300 varities of older ones and only about 20 of fresh seed varieties.

I just soak the seeds o/n in water to which a bit of blue stuff, read MG or Peters, or whatever, or folks can use a few drops of fish or seaweed stuff, and then sow the seeds. I then water with blue stuff water until the seedlings emerge. No concentrations to give you.

The added blue stuff or fish or seaweed ups the concentration of nitrate ion which is known to be involved in seed germination but the seed physiologists don't know what it does. I've contacted two seed physiologists and they don't know.

I don't know that tomato seeds NEED dark to germinate. In fact when I've spilled some seed and it lands on TOP of the mix it seems to germinate very well indeed.

So, you can use the more complicated methods if you wish, and perhaps compare it to the simple method I've used over the years and see what works best for you.

As I said, Craig and I have tried all sorts of stuff from adding giberellic acid to Knitrate to microwave, and I've tried the cold green tea method and others, and always come back to what I described above.

Old seeds are dehydrated and so the major thing you want to do is to hydrate them, which means being sure to stir the seeds from time to time b/f the o/n soak until they fall to the bottom of the container you're using.

[Tomatovator]

Would soaking newer seeds over night in water speed up germination? What about adding some N as well? Would it do any harm? I will be trying to grow some seeds in a few months and really don't know how old they are.

[duajones]

Originally Posted by Tomatovator

Would soaking newer seeds over night in water speed up germination? What about adding some N as well? Would it do any harm? I will be trying to grow some seeds in a few months and really don't know how old they are.

I dont know about adding anything, but simply soaking in water overnight has sped up germination for me