Propagating Prime-Jan Blackberries

[Dutch]

I planted 6 Apache and 6 Prime Jan Blackberry plants in 2013. 4 of the Apache made it through the winter of 2013/2014, but have been slow to grow and have not produced any fruit. All 6 of the Prime-Jan made it through the previous winter and have grown over four times their original size this past summer, plus produced very sweet large berries.
I would like to propagate the Prime-Jan and use on a property line as a barrier for about 300 feet. Do the Prime-Jan blackberry plants propagate well? And if so, what are the best techniques to use to do this on a large scale?
Thanks in advance.
Dutch

[Worth1]

Dutch tip layering, cuttings and suckering is the preferred ways to do this.
Tip layering is where you take the tip of the cane and bury it in the ground in the fall or end of summer and let it take root over the winter.
You will then cut the cane about a foot above the ground and dig up the now new plant and move it to where you want.

Suckering is just that you dig up unwanted suckers and replant them.
And then there is taking cuttings and re rooting them.
Another method is called air layering where you can put a cloth with soil in it on the cane and let it take root.

There are many sites explaining this process on line.

Worth

[Dutch]

Thanks for your reply Worth, I'll check those techniques out. I use the cane cuttings rooting technique to propagate my Goji berries. Good info, thanks again!
Dutch

[Robert Hays]

Dutch I would not propagate those berries. They are still under patent, which means that if you get caught having more plants in large number than you have receipts for you can be fined up to 50k first offense and 5 years in jail. The best thing would be to buy more plants. Phillip Pense at Pense nursery will sell you the plants for about 2.00 per plant shipping included. If you mention my name as a contact that recommended you call him he will sell you the plants at the price I buy them for. I have given him over 40k plants sales in last 3 years so I get them at huge savings as does anyone who mentions my name. The University of Arkansas will prosecute anyone not paying royalties for plants they either sale or propagate. And it costs about 15k to get propagators license to propagate the plants then you have to send a certain amount of money every year minimum for royalty fees.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by Robert Hays

The best thing would be to buy more plants. Phillip Pense at Pense nursery will sell you the plants for about 2.00 per plant shipping included. If you mention my name as a contact that recommended you call him he will sell you the plants at the price I buy them for. I have given him over 40k plants sales in last 3 years so I get them at huge savings as does anyone who mentions my name.

That sounds like a deal!

[Worth1]

I'm scared to death.
Blackberries propagate themselves by way of suckers.

Worth

[Robert Hays]

True that blackberries will sucker, but when you cut the roots that makes a new plant. The people who have patent do not get paid for. The same with tip layering, and root cuttings. It takes years to develop a new variety on any plant and actually 100's of thousands of dollars to get it to market. That is why the patent owners will go after anyone they find out are propagating plants under patent. I have been working for over 15 years on a new variety of muscadine, When I get it finished and have a patent on it you better believe if I hear of someone propagating my plants and I don't get my royalties from it they will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

[barefootgardener]

Originally Posted by Robert Hays

True that blackberries will sucker, but when you cut the roots that makes a new plant. The people who have patent do not get paid for. The same with tip layering, and root cuttings. It takes years to develop a new variety on any plant and actually 100's of thousands of dollars to get it to market. That is why the patent owners will go after anyone they find out are propagating plants under patent. I have been working for over 15 years on a new variety of muscadine, When I get it finished and have a patent on it you better believe if I hear of someone propagating my plants and I don't get my royalties from it they will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

I could understand if someone were to propogate the patented plants and grow them to sell , to make a profit for themselves. But for a typical homegardener who just wants to dig up the suckers and divide the plants that spread after a number of years, you are saying they could be prosecuted, am I understanding this correctly?

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by barefootgardener

I could understand if someone were to propogate the patented plants and grow them to sell , to make a profit for themselves. But for a typical homegardener who just wants to dig up the suckers and divide the plants that spread after a number of years, you are saying they could be prosecuted, am I understanding this correctly?

Yep thats pretty much what he said including him if he catches you me or anyone else on this forum.

Worth

[Robert Hays]

Barefoot gardener, They can prosecute anyone whjo infringes on their patent. NOW, a home gardener that expands their plantings just a few plants would they prosecute? most likely not, but why take a chance? All you have to do is look at when the plants were introduced from the source and it is less than I think 15 years, it is probably still under patent and again why take a chance.

[drew51]

Originally Posted by Robert Hays

Barefoot gardener, They can prosecute anyone who infringes on their patent. NOW, a home gardener that expands their plantings just a few plants would they prosecute? most likely not, but why take a chance? All you have to do is look at when the plants were introduced from the source and it is less than I think 15 years, it is probably still under patent and again why take a chance.

Well that is rather funny. I think the chances are better that monkeys will fly out of my butt.
That they would spend tens of thousands of dollars in lawyer fees to collect the $1.50 you owe them.
Patent infringement is a civil case, not criminal, so they would have to hire the investigators and lawyers.
I had a case where someone owed me 5K, I could not find a lawyer who would take it, because traditionally they take 1/3 of settlement, and 1/3 of 5K was not enough to be worth their time.
Worst case they would send you a cease and desist letter, and if you complied it would be over. it is not worth it to go after you. As far as fines they would first have to prove you violated civil law.
How would they even know? They would not know, nobody watches gardeners to see how they are propagating plants, you could have bought them from Lowes, this is extremely funny!
With that said I think one should respect patents, nobody though is going to come after you.

[barefootgardener]

Originally Posted by Robert Hays

Barefoot gardener, They can prosecute anyone whjo infringes on their patent. NOW, a home gardener that expands their plantings just a few plants would they prosecute? most likely not, but why take a chance? All you have to do is look at when the plants were introduced from the source and it is less than I think 15 years, it is probably still under patent and again why take a chance.

Thank's for the reply Robert. As a backyard gardener I would not live in fear of dividing a few plants if they needed it a few years down the road. We all know how quickly raspberry and blackberry plants spread by runners. They can quickly take over an area, and as a gardener I understand sometimes we need to do what is best for our situation. I tried to dig up some raspberries from an established bed one year, and wanted to move the plants to a new location where they would do better. It was impossible to get all the roots from the first bed and I still ended up with two beds of raspberries, though that was not my intention. They are hard to erradicate. My point is, they were not patented raspberries. But even if they were, I would not live in fear that the patent rasberry police would come after me. I probably would not even remember they were patented to begin with.. Most gardeners who purchase a few patented blackberry bushes at your typical big box store might not even be aware they are patented, or let alone even know what it fully means. Having said all this, I tried to grow blackberries years ago and they did not survive our winters. But, we do have lots of wild blackberries around that thrive and are huge and delicious, if you get to them before the bears do!!

Ginny

[DuckCreekFarms]

Originally Posted by Robert Hays

True that blackberries will sucker, but when you cut the roots that makes a new plant. The people who have patent do not get paid for. The same with tip layering, and root cuttings. It takes years to develop a new variety on any plant and actually 100's of thousands of dollars to get it to market. That is why the patent owners will go after anyone they find out are propagating plants under patent. I have been working for over 15 years on a new variety of muscadine, When I get it finished and have a patent on it you better believe if I hear of someone propagating my plants and I don't get my royalties from it they will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

True, But the Universtiy of Arkansas, who owns the patent(s) is a land grant college under the Smith-Lever Act. So the Hundreds of thousands of dollars that it took to develope those varieties was alsready paid for by YOU (and me) the tax payer.

[DuckCreekFarms]

I didnt' read the entire thread before posting and see what I said above has been covered..

I forgot to mention that I have a friend with a large acrage of Blackberries and drives over to Arkansas to get plants from the Pense Nursery as already mentioned. He talked to the University to see about getting a License to propagate so he could move suckers around to other fields. They seem to be OK with that and mainly interested in nurseries that are propagating for reselling plants.

Also note that the varietes they develope are not as winter hardy as some. U of A is in Zone 7 My friend has some issues, even here, with freeze damage.

[Dutch]

The names on the labels on the blackberry plants containers were blacked out with a magic marker and there were layers of sale stickers over them. It was a lot of work getting down to the original label to see what was on them. I bought a total of 18 "blackberry" plants but some might not be blackberries because the fruit never turn black, only a deep red. I was never able to read all the original labels. I would have never bought them had I known they were GMO blackberries. Something is very wrong here and I don't like it!
Dutch