Tell me about your seeds

[gunrunner]

I have grown tomatoes for many years but have never saved seeds. Was wondering, do you notice any loss of plant quality after growing saved seeds? Also, I just watched a vid on youtube where a guy took and tomato cut it in half and rubbed it on a paper towel to remove the seeds. Then he let the paper towel dry for several days then folded it up and put it in a plastic bag to save for next year. Is this a good method? Looks fairly easy to me, just wondered if it would produce a good plant this way?

Thanks
Mike

[seaeagle]

I went through all 1300 threads in this section and there is very little about fermentation or seed saving methods, here are a couple of threads:

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=6343

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=17016

Below is ContainerTeds Method

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/w...g_Fermentation

Maybe Carolyn will do a red sticky thing on fermentation if she gets time

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by seaeagle

I went through all 1300 threads in this section and there is very little about fermentation or seed saving methods, here are a couple of threads:

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=6343

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=17016

Below is ContainerTeds Method

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/w...g_Fermentation

Maybe Carolyn will do a red sticky thing on fermentation if she gets time

Carolyn already went into details, with pictures, in her Heirloom Tomato book, so not too eager to do it again.

But, first let me give you a Google search for fermentation:

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...f+tomato+seeds

And don't stop at just page one.

There are many many folks who have been using fermentation, some for many decades, and from that link above look for links from

SESE (Southern Exposure Seed Exchange)
Selected Plants, Fusion's website
kdcom, Keith Muellers website

And I don't go fetch it but go to Victory Seeds and find the article on fermentation

Some use other methods to process seeds, one of the most popular are oxidative methods such as using Comet or Oxi-clean,

My problem with those methods is that several folks, including myself, have tried to find data about the efficacy with TOMATO seeds and none has been found to date.

Whereas Dr Helene Dillard when she was at the USDA Geneva, NY station had contracts with either Campbell's of Heinz, I can't remember which, to study the efficacy of fermentation. Her scientific papers are no longer available online but I spoke with her several times when she gave me a rough picture about her results, which was good enough for me.

Commercial seed processing is an acid one and I wouldn't go there.

Fermentation is a natural process that appeals to many of us as you can also see with the Google link I put up.

Carolyn

[gunrunner]

Thanks all for the information. Somehow I felt that the wiping process onto a paper towel
would not be a good method. Would I be safe to try saving from BetterBoy?

Thanks
Mike

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by gunrunner

Thanks all for the information. Somehow I felt that the wiping process onto a paper towel
would not be a good method. Would I be safe to try saving from BetterBoy?

Thanks
Mike

Mike, Dave has answered you but since I have personal experience saving seeds from Big Boy F1, bred by Dr, Oved Shifriss and also know that John Peto bred Better Boy F1, I can tell you the following.

Both ofthose hybrids have one parent in common and that's Teddy Jones, a large pink heirloom tomato from the midwest.

I wanted to see if I could get Teddy Jones out of Big Boy F1 and Oved was my advisor. So I saved the F2 seeds from the hybrid fruits and planted out about maybe 10 plants. I got red fruits of different sizes and shapes, all due to what's called genetic segregation, and of course I tasted those fruits, b'c they were there, and nothing exceptional. There were just two plants that had the pink fruits I was after, but Oved said they were too small,but I never did b'c even the smaller pink ones weren't to my liking taste-wise.

Oved was at Burpee when he bred BBoy F1 and so was John Peto, but he left taking Teddy Jones seeds with him and formed a company called Petoseed, which is how TJ became one parent of Better Boy F1.

All to say that I think you'd be wasting your time saving seeds from BB F1 unless you have a specific goal in mind and are willing to spend several years going after that goal.

An OP version of Big Boy F1 is known:

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/B...b=General_Info

But I've never seen an OP version of BB F1, not at Tania's data base nor by looking at several of my earlier SSE Yearbooks


Hoe that helps,

Carolyn

[seaeagle]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Carolyn already went into details, with pictures, in her Heirloom Tomato book, so not too eager to do it again.

But, first let me give you a Google search for fermentation:

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...f+tomato+seeds

And don't stop at just page one.

There are many many folks who have been using fermentation, some for many decades, and from that link above look for links from

SESE (Southern Exposure Seed Exchange)
Selected Plants, Fusion's website
kdcom, Keith Muellers website

And I don't go fetch it but go to Victory Seeds and find the article on fermentation

Some use other methods to process seeds, one of the most popular are oxidative methods such as using Comet or Oxi-clean,

My problem with those methods is that several folks, including myself, have tried to find data about the efficacy with TOMATO seeds and none has been found to date.

Whereas Dr Helene Dillard when she was at the USDA Geneva, NY station had contracts with either Campbell's of Heinz, I can't remember which, to study the efficacy of fermentation. Her scientific papers are no longer available online but I spoke with her several times when she gave me a rough picture about her results, which was good enough for me.

Commercial seed processing is an acid one and I wouldn't go there.

Fermentation is a natural process that appeals to many of us as you can also see with the Google link I put up.

Carolyn

I read some of the articles on fermentation.One expert says as soon as you see the fungal mat you are finished.

"In a few days, a layer of greyish-white mold forms on top of the water - a good sign. When that layer of mold covers the water's surface, fermentation is done. If you leave your seeds in the water beyond that point, they'll start to germinate, so be sure to check the jar often."

And others say to let the seeds ferment a few more days. I always let the ferment a a couple of days longer.So what is your opinion on this?I have some Cherokee Purple seeds that have a fungal mat now. Are the done?
Anyone else who has an opinion, would love to hear it too

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by seaeagle

I read some of the articles on fermentation.One expert says as soon as you see the fungal mat you are finished.

"In a few days, a layer of greyish-white mold forms on top of the water - a good sign. When that layer of mold covers the water's surface, fermentation is done. If you leave your seeds in the water beyond that point, they'll start to germinate, so be sure to check the jar often."

And others say to let the seeds ferment a few more days. I always let the ferment a a couple of days longer.So what is your opinion on this?I have some Cherokee Purple seeds that have a fungal mat now. Are the done?
Anyone else who has an opinion, would love to hear it too

I don't know who the experts are you refer to and I don't know if I'd be called an expert myself, but I have saved seeds for over 4,000 varieties, I do have an advanced degree in Microbiology and I do understand the mechanics of fermentation from the biological and biochemical aspects. And I have taught both med and college students same.

What is the goal of using fermentation to process tomato seeds? it's to have the fungi AND bacteria that are present in the air land on top of the tomato gunk and eventually produce enzymes that will break apart the tomato remnents always present and to remove the gel capsules from the seeds and to remove most of any tomato pathogens still attached to the seed coat, and all of that is done under anaerobic ( without O2)) conditions.

Does a mat always form atop the tomato gunk? NO. it depends on how many are in the air at any one time and also the pH of the tomato gunk. So you can get just little clumps on top of a very watery surface.

Initially the gunk is fullof 02 and after a true mat forms usually the top 1/3 will be oxygenated. Different fungal and bacteria species can be either strict aeobes, they need 02 to metabolize and replicate, or anaerobes, and some of each are called facultative since they can switch their metabolism from one to the other.

First, the 02 in the upper layer is used up by the aerobic organisms, but it takes a few days for that to happen, and also depends on the ambient temps and how thick the gunk is.

Then anaerobic fermentation takes over and the organisms, still at the top, make enzymes for the fermentative pathways, there are several with differentend products, that results in the destruction of tomato tissues, releasing any adhered seeds, as well as removing the seed gel capsules.

You know when fermentaion is working when you see gas bubbles on the inside of the container and you observe seeds falling to the clear area at the bottom of the container.

I think that covers fermentation and I'm not going to go into what one does when it's known that fermentation is complete, unless someone wants me to, but right now it's not all that high on my prirority list.

Summary? I don't agree with yourexperts and am sticking to my story.

Carolyn

[TexasTycoon]

Originally Posted by seaeagle

I went through all 1300 threads in this section and there is very little about fermentation or seed saving methods, here are a couple of threads:

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=6343

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=17016

Below is ContainerTeds Method

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/w...g_Fermentation

Maybe Carolyn will do a red sticky thing on fermentation if she gets time

P.S. Your third link is broken: http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/A...g_Fermentation

[seaeagle]

Originally Posted by TexasTycoon

P.S. Your third link is broken: http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/A...g_Fermentation

Try this link

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Main_Page

On the left side of the webpage click on Reports and Other Resources>>>Seed Saving and that will take you to the page on Fermentation

The link you said is broken works when I click it

[TexasTycoon]

Originally Posted by seaeagle

Try this link

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Main_Page

On the left side of the webpage click on Reports and Other Resources>>>Seed Saving and that will take you to the page on Fermentation

The link you said is broken works when I click it

I posted the corrected link in my post, it was the third link in your original post that wasn't working for me (had some extra characters). Course it could be the old computer I'm using. Sorry bout that!

[gunrunner]

Again Thanks all for all the great info. Don't thik I will try Betterboy after all.

Mike

[ContainerTed]

Originally Posted by TexasTycoon

P.S. Your third link is broken: http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/A...g_Fermentation

just tried that link and it works just fine.

[AlittleSalt]

I am at multiple stages of saving tomato seeds. I could show each step in pictures if anyone is interested.

[Bipetual]

Originally Posted by AlittleSalt

I am at multiple stages of saving tomato seeds. I could show each step in pictures if anyone is interested.

That would be really cool of you, Robert. I know when the time comes, I would definitely use it, even though I only have two OP plants right now.

[AlittleSalt]

Originally Posted by Bipetual

That would be really cool of you, Robert. I know when the time comes, I would definitely use it, even though I only have two OP plants right now.

Bipetual, thank you. I already have pictures, but I need to read more on the seed saving topic. I'm basically useless from June 30 through July 4. My wife and I celebrate our July 1 anniversary through July 4. This one happens to be our 30th. We also celebrate July 4 (Independence Day) as our favorite holiday - with hundreds of dollars of fireworks, hotdogs and hamburgers, water fights, and baskets of cherry tomatoes, class B fireworks, and ...

When I do start a tomato seed saving thread - I want as much input as I can get to correct things I may have wrong. I don't believe there is a "One Size Fits All" way of saving tomato seeds, but with everyone's help, I want us all to try to post the best way we can think of.