Tobacco Mosaic Virus or Environmental Stress.

[Parcgreene]

I've got a major problem with my ebb and flow hydroponic tomatoes. The branches are curling/coiling up and the leaves are leathery and brittle and also curling upwards. The new growth doesn't have this problem, it starts with the older leaves and works upward. My plants did the same thing last year, I'm wondering if the Tobacco Mosaic Virus was the culprit last year and now this year it has been re-infected. I don't know much about the TMV, and what I've read online hasn't convinced me whether or not this is the problem.

The fruit seems to be developing normally. I thought perhaps the issue was an environmental issue, here's a list of things I've altered checked:

Started using reverse osmosis water instead of tap water.

Changed nutrients from GH Floramato to Hydro-Gardens commercial tomato formula.



Altered flood/drain schedule various different ways.
None of these changes had any effect.

I have a garden hose with a metal end attached to a pump that is attached to my aquarium chiller. Could the low ph of the water be degrading the metal and producing some sort of metal toxicity?

Also I have a family of tree frogs living in my reservoir so there is a small amount of frog excrement in my reservoir.

All of my plants are different types of heirloom tomatoes.

Thanks for your time to read this and hopefully help me with a diagnosis and solution.




















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[Parcgreene]

Here are some ore details since the feedback I'm getting seems to pointing towards user error.

my ph stays from 5.8-6.2



my reservoir temp is 69-72 degrees



outdoor temp is in the low to mid eighties



my current flood cycle is every two hours, I have also tried once every six hours.
my e.c. is 1.0-1.5, I have tried higher amounts but the plants didn't seem to feed more.



I have been mixing my nutrients (chem-gro 4-18-38, calcium nitrate, magnesium sulfate) to the manufacturers instructions with reverse osmosis water.
The only thing I haven't done is add calcium chloride as directed by manufacturer since my base water has under 50 ppm calcium.
Could it be a calcium deficiency?

[dice]

You can see a picture of calcium deficient leaves here:
http://4e.plantphys.net/article.php?ch=5&id=289

Are you mixing these fertilizers together or applying them
separately? (Could the high potassium levels in the 4-18-38 be
inhibiting magnesium uptake? The leaves look most like potassium
or magnesium deficiency, but potassium deficiency is unlikely. See
the notes on chloride at the bottom of that page, too. You could try
foliar feeding the magnesium sulfate, along with some fulvic acid
or molasses to chelate the magnesium, to test and see if the leaves
lose their chlorosis.)

It could be a virus, too. The big physiological leaf roll is quite common,
but there was one picture with what looked like a flat leaf with a tightly
rolled edge. That seems rare enough to be identifiable as some particular
disease or mineral deficiency.

[Heritage]

My first impression was magnesium deficiency. I have similar symptoms on my greenhouse grown tomatoes and have decided it was the most likely cause. While googling for magnesium deficiency photos I came upon this link about hydroponic symptoms. I can't understand what they are saying but it might be of some use to you:
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/l...132668.html?17

Steve

[dice]

You might find this chart from TotalGro of nutrient uptake inhibition
by particular nutrients in excess useful:

http://www.totalgro.com/concepts.htm

[gill_s]

Originally Posted by dice

You can see a picture of calcium deficient leaves here:
http://4e.plantphys.net/article.php?ch=5&id=289

Are you mixing these fertilizers together or applying them
separately? (Could the high potassium levels in the 4-18-38 be
inhibiting magnesium uptake? The leaves look most like potassium
or magnesium deficiency, but potassium deficiency is unlikely. See
the notes on chloride at the bottom of that page, too. You could try
foliar feeding the magnesium sulfate, along with some fulvic acid
or molasses to chelate the magnesium, to test and see if the leaves
lose their chlorosis.)

It could be a virus, too. The big physiological leaf roll is quite common,
but there was one picture with what looked like a flat leaf with a tightly
rolled edge. That seems rare enough to be identifiable as some particular
disease or mineral deficiency.

Hello, I am interested in your suggestion that adding molasses to Magnesium Sulphate would help to chelate it. Would you include it in the foliar spray or water it in seperately? Could you please also indicate quantities of each?
Many thanks.

[dice]

Hello, I am interested in your suggestion that adding molasses to Magnesium Sulphate would help to chelate it.

Kind of a bluff. I have just heard that. (Does molasses chelate the
magnesium, the sulfur, or both? I do not actually know. It is most
well-known for chelating iron, so I would guess it will chelate the
magnesium, too.)

Grigg Bros., who produce commercial amino acid chelates, have a
an FAQ on chelation: http://www.griggbros.com/index.php/s...iar-fertilizer

[edit:

CEC is actually a characteristic of soil or other growing media,
not of liquids like water, as I found out when I looked it up.
/edit]

What is the CEC of molasses in solution in water? I do not know that
either. (If you have an instrument for measuring CEC, you could add
a tablespoon of molasses to water or to your regular solution and
see how much the CEC changes.)

There is a company developing a commercial phytochelate product
from fermented succinic acid from sugar cane. Succinic acid may be
the primary chelating agent in molasses:
( http://www.agriculturesolutions.ca/B...20Molasses.pdf )

I would just use it at the same concentration that I use it as fertilizer:
tablespoon per gallon (for the potassium, trace elements, and
microbial stimulating sugars).

One problem with using exact measures with molasses is that there
is no standard for how concentrated it is in whatever container you
buy it in. (I use this stuff: http://www.agrisupply.com/product.as...090509&lm=agri
High viscosity.)

Same thing with fulvic acid: I would use the same measure of
fulvic acid ("Amber Humic" is a fairly inexpensive product as these
things go) as magnesium sulfate. Various studies have found that it
can chelate cations like magnesium, and it is 2-6 times more efficient
at it than the higher molecular weight humic acids (more easily
absorbed through foliage, too). If you use too much fulvic acid, it is
not likely to have any negative effect on the plant.

If I wanted precise control, I would probably use an amino acid chelate
of specifically magnesium, but I lack the measuring instruments to know
exactly how low the concentration of these metals may be in plant
tissues, so I just eyeball it, chelating with molasses or fulvic acid and
see what happens.

It is good to do a test plant first. Spray it on and check it in a few days.
If there is no change, double one of the ingredients and try it again.
If there is still no change, double the other ingredient (using the original
measure of the ingredient that you doubled before). If that does not work
either, you may need a different kind of product, or the problem is not
what you thought it was.

[dice]

On the question of chelation with fulvic acid, F.A.R.M.Co. markets the
line of "MPXA" fulvic acid chelates to the golf course industry, and
they have quite a bit to say on the use of fulvic acid for this purpose:
http://www.humicsbyfarmco.com/golf-course.html
http://www.humicsbyfarmco.com/golf-qna.html

(Some of this is vendor enthusiasm, of course, but their facts are
probably correct on the acidity question, etc.)

[dice]

These questions about chelation bring up a good point, anyway: since
the original problem was possible magnesium deficiency, perhaps
induced by the high potassium levels in the original poster's soluble
or liquid fertilizer, fulvic acid would be a better ad hoc chelate for
foliar feeding the magnesium in epsom salt than molasses, which
is a potassium fertilizer (around 5% for blackstrap molasses).

I have a bottle of this stuff: http://www.plantsthatproduce.com/pro...rHumic_QT.html

(Shipping was reasonable on 3 quart bottles of various stuff that I wanted
to try on my plants. When I added a gallon or 2.5 gallon jug of something
to the shopping cart, shipping was a bit over the top, it seemed to me.
That raised the effective price too much. Local hydroponic stores that
carry Grow-More products might have it on the shelf.)

This brand of molasses that I have is a brand called Evolved Habitats,
for feeding wild game, and from the label it looks like they at least try
to conform to a standard of sorts. They list on the label:

Moisture Max 27%
Total Sugars (as invert), min 43%
Brix, min 82

The only ingredients are molasses and propionic acid (preservative).

This is different from what we see on bottles of molasses on grocery
store shelves for cooking, which is simply human nutritional information.

A good review of 5 brands for cooking available in the US:
http://www.davidwalbert.com/2010/08/...-the-molasses/

Some comments on sulfured vs unsulfured molasses from a nutrition
website:
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?t...ilytip&dbid=88