Non SWC, but I used peat and no lime. Is it too late?

[squirrel789]

Hi All,

I found a thread related to SWC and Earthtainers, but I'm not entirely sure if that info pertains to my setup. I'm not new to tomatoes, but am totally new to patio container tomatoes. Any and all advice is greatly appreciated.

Here are the basics, and the questions:

I used a mixture of roughly 2 parts compost from a reputable local nursery, 2 parts peat moss, and 1 part vermiculite. I'm growing in a 170 gallon galvanized water trough on castors (confined to a patio) with lots of drainage holes in the bottom. I stripped lower branches and planted tall starter plants very deep vertically, leaving only the 4" tops poking out. I soaked the heck out of the mixture to help overcome the initial peat hydrophobia. The mixture seems to be draining well.

Since I've found TV, I've learned a lot, and now I am afraid that due to the high ratio of peat I should have added dolomite lime to the mixture as well. The plants are doing fine so far, maybe a foot tall on average, but I'm only a week in. Also, I am starting to use TFF fertilizer as flowers are starting to appear on most of the plants, and this was generally recommended as a great product.

Should I be worried? Is lime going to necessary in the long run? If so, is it purely for PH regulation or are there other advantages?

I have a fairly decent, inexpensive PH meter I've used for making cheese, and I assume can I use this to test the growing medium's PH as well. And I can always grab some litmus paper if that's an effective alternative. I have yet to test the growing medium's PH and am somewhat unsure how to do so effectively. Stick the PH meter in the top, in the water that drains out, etc.?

I've know that tomatoes prefer a slightly acidic environment, and I've even read that lime helps to improve sweetness and flavor in the tomato. Again, all thoughts and opinions are much appreciated.

I've also read that an ideal PH for tomatoes is around 6.0 to 6.8. In a container of this size, given the growing medium components, could or should lime be added at this point? If so, what is the best way to add it without remixing soil or disturbing the plants and their roots too much? A mixture I can simply water into the large container would be ideal, but I'm not sure it's that simple.

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm already invested and really want to make this type of system work to maximum potential. If there are other factors that are relevant that I left out, please ask, or check out my "Horse trough" thread in the container section.

Any and all responses, advice, or criticisms are very appreciated, even if only for a better yield next year if it is already too late for this year.

Thank you all so much for taking to time to read and respond!

[ginger2778]

Originally Posted by squirrel789

Hi All,

I found a thread related to SWC and Earthtainers, but I'm not entirely sure if that info pertains to my setup. I'm not new to tomatoes, but am totally new to patio container tomatoes. Any and all advice is greatly appreciated.

Here are the basics, and the questions:

I used a mixture of roughly 2 parts compost from a reputable local nursery, 2 parts peat moss, and 1 part vermiculite. I'm growing in a 170 gallon galvanized water trough on castors (confined to a patio) with lots of drainage holes in the bottom. I stripped lower branches and planted tall starter plants very deep vertically, leaving only the 4" tops poking out. I soaked the heck out of the mixture to help overcome the initial peat hydrophobia. The mixture seems to be draining well.

Since I've found TV, I've learned a lot, and now I am afraid that due to the high ratio of peat I should have added dolomite lime to the mixture as well. The plants are doing fine so far, maybe a foot tall on average, but I'm only a week in. Also, I am starting to use TFF fertilizer as flowers are starting to appear on most of the plants, and this was generally recommended as a great product.

Should I be worried? Is lime going to necessary in the long run? If so, is it purely for PH regulation or are there other advantages?

I have a fairly decent, inexpensive PH meter I've used for making cheese, and I assume can I use this to test the growing medium's PH as well. And I can always grab some litmus paper if that's an effective alternative. I have yet to test the growing medium's PH and am somewhat unsure how to do so effectively. Stick the PH meter in the top, in the water that drains out, etc.?

I've know that tomatoes prefer a slightly acidic environment, and I've even read that lime helps to improve sweetness and flavor in the tomato. Again, all thoughts and opinions are much appreciated.

I've also read that an ideal PH for tomatoes is around 6.0 to 6.8. In a container of this size, given the growing medium components, could or should lime be added at this point? If so, what is the best way to add it without remixing soil or disturbing the plants and their roots too much? A mixture I can simply water into the large container would be ideal, but I'm not sure it's that simple.

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm already invested and really want to make this type of system work to maximum potential. If there are other factors that are relevant that I left out, please ask, or check out my "Horse trough" thread in the container section.

Any and all responses, advice, or criticisms are very appreciated, even if only for a better yield next year if it is already too late for this year.

Thank you all so much for taking to time to read and respond!

At this point a weekly feed/soak with Calcinit would be your simplest bet. Water soluble(very) calcium nitrate. I get mine from Kelp4less.com. Just mix and pour. It's not even very expensive.

[squirrel789]

Ginger,

Thanks for the reply and info! I will look into the product.

Is the lime necessary if I find my PH is already in an acceptable range for tomatoes? Is the idea of lime addition and better flavor true in anyone's experience?

I'm happy to add it, and probably will to be safe, but I wonder if it is really beneficial/necessary.

Thanks for any thoughts or comments!

[RayR]

Originally Posted by squirrel789

Ginger,

Thanks for the reply and info! I will look into the product.

Is the lime necessary if I find my PH is already in an acceptable range for tomatoes? Is the idea of lime addition and better flavor true in anyone's experience?

I'm happy to add it, and probably will to be safe, but I wonder if it is really beneficial/necessary.

Thanks for any thoughts or comments!

Do a slurry test of your mix. Take a few tablespoons of dry mix and put ii in a small glass. Add enough distilled water until the water is just above the saturated medium. Stir it up good and let it settle for 15 minutes or so. Then insert your PH probe in the water just above the settled mix. Don't insert your probe in the mix itself that settled to the bottom. That should give you a reasonably accurate PH reading.
You can still add dolomite lime by adding a little into you water to adjust the PH up. Let it sit for a day and then take another sample, air dry it and test again like before to see if the PH went up. Only add a tiny amount of lime at time. It's a lot easier to raise PH then to lower it.

[ginger2778]

The pH of peat is very acidic, I have had my pH meter read as low as 3. Highly acidic media will not allow for proper nutrient uptake. So the short answer is most likely yes, it's necessary, but take your pH to see.

[squirrel789]

RayR and Ginger,

That's some great, and very specific, info. A precise methodology was exactly what I was looking for!

Thank you both so much! I will pull a sample now and let it start to dry, as I watered with some diluted TFF earlier today, and due to the size, my container stays moist pretty contantly (until the real heat arrives anyway). It's been so long since I've made cheese with it, I guess I'll have to calibrate the PH meter again first as well.

Many thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience. I hope I can one day return the favor

[Bipetual]

The Calcinit will also help prevent blossom end rot.

[squirrel789]

Originally Posted by RayR

Do a slurry test of your mix. Take a few tablespoons of dry mix and put ii in a small glass. Add enough distilled water until the water is just above the saturated medium. Stir it up good and let it settle for 15 minutes or so. Then insert your PH probe in the water just above the settled mix. Don't insert your probe in the mix itself that settled to the bottom. That should give you a reasonably accurate PH reading.
You can still add dolomite lime by adding a little into you water to adjust the PH up. Let it sit for a day and then take another sample, air dry it and test again like before to see if the PH went up. Only add a tiny amount of lime at time. It's a lot easier to raise PH then to lower it.

Alright, I followed the slurry methodology you described. My mix was moist, so to dry it thoroughly and more quickly I spread it out on a small glass plate with a small fan moving the air gently above it. Ultimately, after the other steps you described, I came up with a reading of 6.5. The PH meter is decent but not ultra-professional grade: http://shop.hannainst.com/hi98127-phep4-ph-tester.html

I will continue to try this, to see if the results remain consistent. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere else on TV that some brands of peat aren't nearly as acidic as other brands, so Maybe I just got lucky?

Also, I have used Texas Tomato Food a few times since I started, which I know contains a good amount of calcium, so maybe that helped? I'm not sure if the other ingredients in that fertilizer are acidic or alkaline though, so its overall effect is unknown to me. I will continue to resample and test from different parts of the container, and hopefully the PH readings will stay consistent.

If the sample readings do stay consistent around 6.5-ish, should this be adequate and should I leave it alone? I am rather obsessive about my container garden this year because I only get to grow a few plants (11 actually, but not all in the same container). Before this year, I had access to land allowing me to grow a big 120 plant in-ground tomato garden and all the tomatoes I could eat, share, or preserve. Now I have a patio...

Does anyone have thoughts or suggestions about the merits of adjusting the PH up or down from 6.5 and any benefits that might have? Like a better foliage, yield, flavor, etc.?

Thanks for any and all replies!

[RayR]

Yes, some horticultural peat moss is already buffered with lime to balance the PH. So who's peat moss did you use? The info should be printed on the bag somewhere. 6.5 is fine, don't touch a thing.

Nitrates have the potential to increase soil PH over time but it's not the same thing as Lime. The carbonates in Lime have low solubility in water but react readily with acids produced by chemical reactions, microorganisms and roots exudates. The undissolved carbonates can last a pretty long time in the soil and buffer the PH. In other words it will keep the PH from swinging wildly down.

[squirrel789]

Hi RayR,

I got the peat from a local nursery, but it wasn't extra expensive (maybe $5 per bale) and they didn't tell me it was special in any way. It looked like a big, bagged bale just like you would find at a major chain store like HDepot.

As for the brand I just don't remember, and the bags are long gone. I made the mix several months ago, as the water troughs were originally for a spring garden (greens and such), but I decided to leave it dry and protected in my garage and use it for tomatoes instead. I covered it in chicken wire so the cat wouldn't use it as the world's most luxurious litter box... she won't walk on the chicken wire, let alone try to dig.

I waited until about a little over a week ago to plant tomatoes and made sure the mixture was very well soaked.

I think more samples are in order before I rely too much on that reading, and I will try to take from varying depths as well since it's a pretty big container I'm growing in. The first sample, I tried to dig down about a foot, as my plants were planted vertically about 14" deep out of a total depth of 2'.

But if results stay consistent, and 6.5 is fine, then I'm a happy camper! Your method is simple method and easy, thanks so much for suggesting it. I will be adding it to my repertoire every year since I have the PH meter already.

I really appreciate your time and responses! I am now an official TomatoVille addict, and am finding that my days that I can "work" from home far less productive since I'm always finding something new to read here.

I'll update after a few more samples and see what I come up with. Thanks!!!

[RayR]

Yes you might have been lucky. You've got equal parts of compost and peat, compost usually runs around a neutral
PH so even if the peat was a bit acidic the compost would move the PH up overall. The vermiculite could have done the same if it's an alkaline vermiculite. Your water could also have an impact if it contains calcium carbonate.

[squirrel789]

Originally Posted by RayR

Yes you might have been lucky. You've got equal parts of compost and peat, compost usually runs around a neutral
PH so even if the peat was a bit acidic the compost would move the PH up overall. The vermiculite could have done the same if it's an alkaline vermiculite. Your water could also have an impact if it contains calcium carbonate.

I didn't get a chance to sample today, so I'm not sure my first reading wasn't an anomaly, but I will keep this updated when I can. Thanks so much for sharing your knowledge and time!