Big healthy plants, but few blossom clusters...

[zipcode]

Some dropped blossoms, still some left, not looking all that bad. Yes, the amount of flowers seems low, but some varieties don't make more than 6-8 (like the popular Big Beef for example). Some picture from farther away would be good, maybe they are too crowded and therefore don't get enough sun.

[Gerardo]

I'm in the same boat with Drew51, Rootpouches give great results, especially if they're > 15 gallons.

I just pulled some plants that weren't setting fruit; already at their 3rd flower cluster and still no dice. Its nice to have that option, thank you 31 degrees North. Out with the green tomatoes, in with the hearts!

I hope your next few clusters are more productive.

[digsdirt]

Are these symptoms typical for the wet weather and moisture-retentive growing medium I put together as discussed in the posts above

They sure can be. Humidity plays just as big a role in Blossom Drop as air temps do. Even under ideal conditions early spring fruit set, given the average early spring weather extremes, is iffy in comparison to later fruit set %. And all these low-on-the-plant bloom clusters were the early ones.

Dave

[geeboss]

Get a small bag of tomato tone your P , K may need a shot in the arm. maybe raybo can chime in.

[squirrel789]

Thank you all for the advice!

I am banking on better fruit set if/when the rain can stay away for awhile and I can better control the moisture levels. I also plan to get some Tomato Tone, or other recommended dry fertilizer with a full spectrum of minerals and micro-nutrients that are supposed to help with blossom growth and fruit set, but with low nitrogen compared to the P and K. If it is going to rain, I might as well let it help wash some nutrients down into the container where hopefully the roots can take advantage of them.

As for the Root Pouches and using smaller containers, I'm sure they work great! For me, I'm already invested in the deep galvanized trough systems I put together, so I'm pretty determined to learn enough to make them work. I just need to make a more versatile mix next year, with better drainage, so I can be in control of the moisture in the container. This should minimize my helplessness against whatever type of weather comes my way. I still wonder though about the tiny little blossoms that appear to be forming on some of the lower clusters that haven't set any fruit (pics 2 and 3), and whether or not there is any possibility they might develop all the way...

I've learned a lot though from all the posts, everyone's perspectives give me something to think about. Being my first time trying indeterminate tomatoes in containers, I see now how very different it is than a traditional garden in the ground. I'm extremely interested in the amount of control container gardens can afford and hope to improve mine considerably next year, mostly by tweaking/changing the ratios and components I use in the growing medium.

I don't think all is lost though, there is still plenty of summer ahead. Who knows, I may not regret all that moisture retention in my current mix quite as much as I do now when a blazing hot, drought-riddled Missouri July or August rolls around.

Most of all, I wish I had found this forum BEFORE I planned my mix! I've learned tons since I've joined. Then I would have known at the start of this season just how extremely moisture retentive my 2-2-1 (compost:peat moss:coarse vermiculite) mixture could be, especially when monsoon-like conditions unexpectedly hit the Midwest . I'd rather it drain much better and have to water/fertilize it more often if necessary.

When it's not raining, I can watch, tend to, and usually end up over-analyzing, my plants often throughout the day since I now work mostly from home. With my super-bright patio lights and a good flashlight I really like to check them out late at night and see what the plants (or pests) are up to. I've never had that sort of accessibility before, and it probably makes me ask many questions that will answer themselves eventually.

So, in terms of planning next year's mix, my goal is to have much more control over the amount of water/nutrients the plants have in the containers at any given time. Currently, I feel like I'm just watching from the sidelines waiting for the weather to change. Based on all the great input from those who have posted in my threads, I think that for my situation, it seems to all boil down to having better drainage. To a reasonable extent, of course (I don't think I'll try planting tomatoes in a mix purely designed for succulents or anything).

I can always add some more water/nutrients into the container as needed, taking the excess water back out... well, not so easily done

Thanks again for all your posts! I love reading all the advice/criticisms I can get, and I try to give back to other threads what I can.

[digsdirt]

I'm already invested in the deep galvanized trough systems I put together, so I'm pretty determined to learn enough to make them work.

That sort of set up would be the ideal situation for a drip irrigation system such as I use I think. It takes a bit of practice to get the auto timing just right and the best gph drippers for the plants. But once it is up and running I find it to be the ideal method for stabilizing my soil moisture levels and avoiding the extremes. And it has the added benefits of letting you accurately compensate for heavy rainfalls and for using fertigation to feed them if interested.

Dave

[Tracydr]

Next year, I would add pine bark fines in a good quantity. And, layer of rocks on the bottom,too. Plastic mulch or even foul can protect soil from too much water.

[squirrel789]

Dave - I would be interested in learning more about this a drip irrigation type of setup for next year. I have soaker hoses and a timer, which I yet to use thanks to the weather . I am not familiar with the method you describe, but I'll definitely do some research. Any part of supplying the necessities that I can automate, or better yet allow the plant to regulate for itself, sounds like a good idea to me! Thanks for the suggestion, as I put a good amount of time and effort into the 2 170 gal troughs and I probably should also make sure I justify their purchase to my wife. She keeps asking when the tomatoes will be ripe

Tracydr - Thanks for the suggestion! I have been looking at a slight more retentive version of the famous 5-1-1 mix with pine bark fines that better suits my typically weather, although I took the idea of moisture retention too far this year and mother nature slapped me on the wrist for it I hadn't considered plastic to keep out the rain, but it seems like it would help. Is there a method you would recommend to use? Since I planned to be top watering my beds with a soaker hose, putting anything plastic in there it hadn't crossed my mind. So now I have another idea to look into... Thanks!

I have a question about the rock layer though, as I used med size river rock this year in the bottom couple of inches of the trough with weed guard on top to prevent loosing the growing medium through all the drainage holes. I hear that piece of advice recommended all over the internet and it seems to make sense. However, I've also heard a lot of opposition to it as it will actually raise the perched water table and lessen the amount of space in which the roots can grow (the troughs have 2' total depth). I guess it's another yet another topic like pruning where there are differing opinions?

A quick update though... I think I have been a bit hasty, as several of the lower "dead" clusters now have tiny tomatoes on them! It just seems very out of synch with the in-ground gardens I've had before, and the fruit I do have seems to be growing very, slowly. I plan to pick up the most comprehensive dry fertilizer/amendment I can find locally, with high P and K as well as plenty trace minerals and nutrients and get some into the garden tonight if possible before it rains again.

I am guessing the abundant rain has washed my growing medium of many of the things needed for fruit/flower growth, or else prohibited proper uptake of them by the plant roots. Either way, I think some comprehensive fertilizer or amendments are in order now that next week sunny days are on the horizon. Well, for now anyway.
Some fruit is finally setting on those clusters pics of the other day, which is a shock since those lower clusters have been there so long looking totally inert. Attached are some pics of some of the same clusters today, since there was a break in the rain and I could get outside for a bit.

As always, thanks for the posts and if anyone wants to recommend their favorite comprehensive dry fertilizer, that would awesome! I looked at Tomato Tone, but the current formulation it is lacking a few things I was hoping for. Perhaps I'll have to use it with another type of amendment for the full spectrum I am going for. My Texas Tomato Food has everything I want, but I don't think I can safely put the amount of water needed to use that product into the garden anytime soon. The rain isn't quite over yet...

If anyone's interested, the first pic is the same as pic 5 on the previous page of the thread, which, oddly is the lowest and probably oldest cluster in the garden, and second pic is the same cluster as pic 1 posted on the previous page. Again, it was a low, long dormant cluster compared to the clusters higher up the same plant. Not normal, but there is some fruit setting.

Thanks!

[Goldie321]

Had similar issues the last two years with low tomato output.. Last fall (this is Florida - 2 growing seasons) I switched to Jobes Tomato and Vegetable fertilizer - not the Jobe's Organics. Not every place carries it though. Most carry the Jobe's Organics, and you'll notice the first number is only 2 on that one while it's 10 on this - and it certainly makes a huge difference. If you have a Rural King location, they have it. That was where I found it and it's the only garden center around here that carries it. I tried their spikes and it looked good at first, but they petered out much earlier than they were supposed to so I switched to this and apply about three teaspoons to each container once a week. Tomatoes started popping out like crazy. When I ran out, I bought the Organics version with the lower numbers because I thought the other might have been discontinued since I couldn't locate it in a store close to home and things started to slow down. Went back to Rural King and there it was. I'm saving the Organics for my string beans. They don't need much fertilizer.

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[geeboss]

The Nitrogen at 10 is fine for growing the plant to 4' after that i rather bring it down to 3 or 4. The P n K are fine. N at 10 once the plant growing has reached 4' may contribute to more growth rather than putting energy into blooming and fruit development.

[kurt]

Looking at the same clusters on different shots and different days I am befuddled as to the black decay in the petals.Usually they stay yellow and fall off when fruit sets.Then if no pollination occurs the whole petal plus stem falls off.The black spot on the petal/stem still stuck to the developed mater might indicate some kind of black fungus.I have never seen that before maybe someone can chime in to some probable experience with this type of condition.

[Goldie321]

Originally Posted by geeboss

The Nitrogen at 10 is fine for growing the plant to 4' after that i rather bring it down to 3 or 4. The P n K are fine. N at 10 once the plant growing has reached 4' may contribute to more growth rather than putting energy into blooming and fruit development.

Well it's doing great for me. Picked 9 lbs of tomatoes in the last couple of days. Oh and I only have 8 plants.

[squirrel789]

Originally Posted by kurt

Looking at the same clusters on different shots and different days I am befuddled as to the black decay in the petals.Usually they stay yellow and fall off when fruit sets.Then if no pollination occurs the whole petal plus stem falls off.The black spot on the petal/stem still stuck to the developed mater might indicate some kind of black fungus.I have never seen that before maybe someone can chime in to some probable experience with this type of condition.

Yeah, I was pretty surprised too!

The whole cluster has tiny tomatoes starting to grow on it now. There were only a few clusters with the darkened flowers, and I'll be watching those too as the flowers haven't dropped off yet. The plants look pretty healthy overall, and the other clusters further up look totally normal so far. I wonder why the all the rain and moisture slowed the development and opening of the darkened clusters when the upper clusters developed normally in the same basic condistions? We had a brief break in the rain in early June, but the growing medium has been pretty saturated most of the summer so far. I will see what happens, and I'll post some more pics if there is anything interesting to see.

Thanks to all for the fertilizer suggestions! They have inspired me to look at just about every granular fertilizer out there, except some of the hardcore hydroponic stuff. In the process I have learned a few things about what is needed to allow the roots to be able to absorb and use all the different nutrients we put in our gardens. I had no idea how complex the process was, and I've not even remotely scratched the surface of that complex topic. I did learn though that it takes a lot more interaction from different micro-nutrients/trace minerals and bacteria/fungi than I realized.

So in the end, I settled on a small package of Jobe's Organics 2-7-4 (couldn't find the suggested 10-8-4 type locally). It has the main NPK nutrients covered in the basic ratio I was looking for and a ton of bacterial and various Mycorrizae fungi additions to help make sure that the mixture is inoculated with the right stuff to help the plants better able to absorb the nutrients. I also got a Ferti-lome product that is 7-22-8 (almost the same ratio, but lower Potassium) that contains nearly all the micro-nutrients and trace minerals recommended for tomatoes that were missing from the Jobe's, but none of the bacteria or fungi. I couldn't find a dry product that had both the cultures and the trace elements anywhere locally.

I really shouldn't add much (or any) water to my garden as it's still soaked. So I am thinking about alternating, or trying a mixture of the two to provide the recommended trace minerals and the beneficial bacteria/fungi from the Jobe's. The mixture is wet enough that I thought I'd apply it under the mulch directly onto the top of the medium, and hopefully the water will carry it down with the next bout of rain, or if the weather actually stays clear for a few days, turn on the soaker hose for just a bit to help carry it down into the container. It sounds like a reasonable way to cover nearly all the bases. Only the NPK overlap but are similar ratios, and the other components in the two fertilizers appear to be complimentary; each adds most of what the other is missing. However, this year has certainly taught me that what sounds like a good idea at first can turn out to be a very bad idea in the end Anyone think this is a feasible plan to mix these and use them in moderation until the growing mix can be freely watered again with my preferred water-soluble fertilizer?

I understand Nitrogen is important for many reasons at all times during plant growth and that it can be washed out of the growing medium with extended watering/rain, which we certainly have had. Yet, my container volume is quite large (170 gal), the plants look nice and green and they are still growing taller and taller like crazy. They are getting to be around the 5'-6' mark after just around a month in the ground (pruned to 2 vines each for lack of horizontal space). I take this to mean that Nitrogen isn't really lacking despite all the rain, and it's probably safe to back off a bit and use fertilizers with low N and much higher P and K to aid in blossom production and fruit setting. Someone please correct me if I'm way off here, or they think it's a bad strategy given the mobility of nitrogen and the continuous rain I've had!

Honestly, I'd prefer to only have to use the dry fertilizers temporarily until my moisture-retentive mixture dries a bit, I just want to make sure the growing mix is inoculated with the right fungi/bacteria, and has the trace minerals necessary for healthy production in the meantime. If the typical, hot summer weather ever finally sets in for real, and we get a good long break from the unusual deluge of rain, I should be able to eventually start using the Texas Tomato Food again that I really had hoped to try all season long. With the size of my container (170 gal), I am guessing it will take awhile for the moisture-retentive mix to dry out enough for regular watering. Using the TTF was my original fertilization plan I wanted to try once the blossoming/fruiting began. That stuff is the most comprehensive single product I've found in all the research I've done, and I've heard some rave reviews here on the forum. I wish I could have used it all season to see if it lives up to the hype. With the constant periods of rain we've had though, I just couldn't put the amount of water it needs to be dissolved into in the already saturated containers, and was afraid to use a more concentrated solution than recommended.

Thanks to everyone for all the helpful responses, and please pardon my rambling. Typing all this stuff out and seeing it in print is actually pretty helpful as it makes me think about what I'm doing, especially if I'm telling my novice ideas to all the successful gardeners here at TV!

Plus, if what I am planning/thinking is totally wrong, or someone thinks it's a poor strategy, I really hope they chime in. The criticism is helpful and I always learn something new from it. If it sounds good, well then a little encouragement never hurts either

I'm grateful for this forum and all the posts and opinions. Thanks!

[Goldie321]

All the rain we got in a few days caused some leaf fungus as well - it can get pretty bad. Here in Florida, June is really the end of tomatoes until the fall. It's the heavy rain we get so many times per week in summer along with the temp in the 90s every day. I go around clipping the dead and dying leaves/branches. It seems to help keep it from spreading to the unaffected areas too quickly, and gives the plants some time for a last hurrah lol! The current batch of tomatoes I have will probably be it for this group of plants. I replant in late summer when the temps start to slip down a little.