No Potting Up Method To Be Assayed

[lumierefrere]

Since I'm tired of huge plants in the living room who look longingly thru the windows to the outside where it's 50 degrees in May, I'm starting everything in about 3-4 weeks. I went to Agway and got the plastic 6 cell containers. I have my plant stand, lights, fan and plan on moving the trays into a cool room at night.

Is there anything more I need to know (Carolyn) about doing this so I can have nice compact seedlings without getting quart milk cartons from the neighbors to bury the plants in?

Barb

[carolyn137]

Barb, about all I can say is that we're in roughly the same growing zone and area and if I were you I wouldn't be sowing seed until about April 1st with a goal of setting out around June 1, depending on weather. And that includes about a week of hardening off.

Once you've done the initial transplant to the plastic 6-paks you want to let them settlle in and grow a bit and then, and only then, transfer them to a cooler area for the remainder of their growing before hardening them off.

So I wouldn't recommend putting them in a cool room each night.

[lumierefrere]

3-4 weeks would be the 1st weekish of April or am I not knowing where and when I am in the Universe ;-) I'm aiming at 6-8 weeks before plant out and not doing the oh I'm hoping we're having a really warm May and I'll sneak them out May 15th thing this year.

I said the cooler room because people have said they're getting leggy because they're in the living room where the only heat source is for the house. I figured I can schlep them back here into the office at nite where it's not 70 all nite long. After they're stabilized, not before they're a couple inches tall, I didn't think.

If you say then it's no. I don't want the mess and the potting up, I need to streamline this process.

Thanks for the help.

Barb

[tjg911]

Barb,

4/1 is the earliest I'd start seeds here, 4/7 even 4/10 is better in my experience.

It sounds like you have a grow lite shop light setup? Since it is your 1st year here's what I have learned -

1. keep plants 1" to 2" from the tubes. Outside that range is too close or too far. If the leaves touch the tubes they'll be burned. Not a disaster but better to avoid.
2. 16 hours on 8 hours off as in near or total darkness for rest
3. I need to transplant the seedlings 3 times. I use a 3-5 oz dixie cup 1st time. I use a 10-12 oz styrofoam cup the 2nd time. The last time I use a 2 qt plastic pot, I bought 2 dozen at a greenhouse. By Memorial Day they are really root bound.
4. my seeds are started upstairs in the house where temps range from 58 to 75 degrees. It'll be 68-75 if the sun's out and I get passive heat (don't count on seeing the sun more than 7 times in May!) or I run the wood stove because it is cold out. Lack of passive solar or not cold enough to use wood stove means it can be 58-64 degrees, I'll survive and it builds character! My point is they'll germinate, faster if warmer but slower if cooler. Once 1/3 to 1/2 are up in a container, that container goes to the basement under the shop lights, the rest will come up but those that are up need strong light. The basement is going to be about 55-60 at that point. They do fine in those cooler temps, by mid May it'll be 62-65.
5. you need many small pieces of something (I use wood) of different thicknesses to shim the plants under the lights as they all grow at slightly, sometimes very, different rates. Remember rule #1 above.
6. about May 5 I'm in the 2 qt pots and can fit just 6 or 7 pots under a 4' shop light if I remember correctly. Make sure you have enough lights to put the plants under. I use 2 shelves, each shelf has 2 shop lights side by side.
7. I would be very leery of May 15th based upon things you have said to me. That date is really dangerously pushing it for me. Some people in the Hartford suburbs in the CT river valley pull that off but it's warmer there. I'm at 1000' they are at 550 - 600'. Also beware of full moons! I don't plant by the moon, it seems silly to me. Waxing moon - plant above ground crops, waning moon - plant root crops, jeesh what nonsense! I do fine without paying any attention to this. But I have observed that it IS colder just before the full moon. It is not uncommon to have frost 2-3 days before or after the full moon in May. We had snow and sleet May 8-11 with 20 degrees one year a day before a full moon! May 2 and June 1 are full moons this year per my calendar so we may be safe, I doubt I'd get a frost on 5/31 or 6/1 but never say never. Where you are, well you know better than me, but 6/1 for you may produce frost. Planting out on 5/30 means you just need to cover the plants and since you're around in the morning you can uncover them by say 9 am. They'll be about 14-22" tall with stalks about 3/8" to 5/8" in diameter.
8. I don't use a fan but I do brush them to get them used to 'wind' as it produces a radial ply strengthening to the stem as they grow. Ever split Elm? Radial plies, the most brutally difficult wood to split as the tree twists in opposite directions each season as it grows.

Tom

[lumierefrere]

Tom, this is not my first year at all. I've been growing from seed for well over 20 years. :-)

[tjg911]

i know that barb.

i thought you were asking about growing under lights as in this was your 1st year doing that? maybe i misunderstood what you were asking. you did mention putting them out in mid may. i offered advice on growing under lights for you.

tom

[lumierefrere]

Your advice was excellent Tom and I'm sure all the people who are new to this will appreciate all the time you took.

You do mention potting up. The question I had basically for Carolyn, or anyone who doesn't pot up, is how to avoid potting up.

The mention of the vague possibility of having just the right conditions here to plant out in mid-May I have accepted as a fantasy. So I don't want huge plants inside, potting up, all the mess, as I wait for perfect weather when if I was as clever about it as Carolyn, it would be no struggle at all ;-)

Barb

[dice]

You could start them in bigger pots.

Based on other posts I have read, Carolyn seems
to dislike this method, because she wants the
central taproot to turn and the plant to grow a more
fibrous root system before they are transplanted,
but 6 weeks in a 6" pot under good light may
accomplish that anyway.

Whether you have room for that many larger pots
under your lights, that's another issue.

(I'm thinking you would only have to transplant
once, into the garden, if you started them in pots
that big.)

[lumierefrere]

Having a bit of a problem perhaps with the striving to be just like Carolyn method. Roots are coming out of the bottoms of these cells. I have at least 4 weeks before I can plant out. Should I repot or hold what I've got?

(I hope your surgery goes seamlessly, Carolyn)

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by lumierefrere

Having a bit of a problem perhaps with the striving to be just like Carolyn method. Roots are coming out of the bottoms of these cells. I have at least 4 weeks before I can plant out. Should I repot or hold what I've got?

(I hope your surgery goes seamlessly, Carolyn)

Barb, I use those 6 cell paks only for peppers when I was doing that, but for tomatoes I used the 4 cell paks, cells about 2 inches, 8 of those to the flat for 32 plants/flat.

So I can understand how you might be getting roots coming out of the bottom. I do as well with the method I use, but by that time it's just about time to harden them off and all is well.

However, what do you do now?

You don't want to take them out of those small cells and pot up b'c I'm sure you've got lots and lots of plants to work with.

So I'd suggest stripping off almost all the foliage leaving just the central leader stem with a puff of foliage, putting them in as cool a place as you can, and holding back on water.

How tall are they now?

it seems to me that this came about b'c you started the seeds too soon in too small of a cell. Would that be about right?

If I were still raising my own plants I wouldn't have sowed seed until about April 1 and cherry tomato seed one week after that.

Someone above commented about tap and fibrous roots.

Once you make one transplant the tomato plants will grow with fibrous roots. What I don't want to do is to pot up and up as so many do to get a huge network of fibrous roots that are so brittle they can't easily be transplanted.

And thanks for the kind words about my upcoming surgery. Seamless? In your dreams. The incision on the right side will no doubt match the one already on the left side and that one is one foot long. And pretty straight, but after all, it's a man doing the cutting a sewing, ya know.

[lumierefrere]

Barb, I use those 6 cell paks only for peppers when I was doing that, but for tomatoes I used the 4 cell paks, cells about 2 inches, 8 of those to the flat for 32 plants/flat.

Hmmm. These are the 4 packs they had at Agway. I wonder if they are smaller than yours tho.

You don't want to take them out of those small cells and pot up b'c I'm sure you've got lots and lots of plants to work with.

So I'd suggest stripping off almost all the foliage leaving just the central leader stem with a puff of foliage, putting them in as cool a place as you can, and holding back on water.

How tall are they now?

They're not that tall. The tallest might be almost 3". Most are shorter.

it seems to me that this came about b'c you started the seeds too soon in too small of a cell. Would that be about right?

You said 6 weeks and I swear to you I held off. I started them beginning April 15. I was having the vapors, I admit it, because it was so much later that usual, but I did it.

If I were still raising my own plants I wouldn't have sowed seed until about April 1 and cherry tomato seed one week after that.

I'm substantially after that.

Someone above commented about tap and fibrous roots.

Once you make one transplant the tomato plants will grow with fibrous roots. What I don't want to do is to pot up and up as so many do to get a huge network of fibrous roots that are so brittle they can't easily be transplanted.

I may pot up with the tallest and see if the shorter ones hang on. I rather doubt it with another 4 weeks to go. The potato leafs seem to have more vigorous growth.

And to assure you, they are right under the lights, they're not stretching.

And thanks for the kind words about my upcoming surgery. Seamless? In your dreams. The incision on the right side will no doubt match the one already on the left side and that one is one foot long. And pretty straight, but after all, it's a man doing the cutting a sewing, ya know.

Yikes. 12". That's a heck of an incision. I will send many positive thoughts your way.

Barb
__________________

[dice]

Maybe you could make newspaper pots out of
a tennis ball can. That makes kind of a tall,
narrow pot with about a 3" diameter, plenty
of room for the roots until plant out but one
can still fit lots of them under 4' flourescent
lights.

I have noticed that newspaper pots dry out
more quickly than plastic pots (the newspaper
absorbs water from the soil and allows it to
evaporate from a larger surface area), but that
is not really a liability with tomato seedlings,
where the opposite problem, drying out too
slowly, is more of an issue for plant health
and root development. One simply must
keep a closer eye on them in newspaper pots
than in plastic pots. I can usually tell by the
weight of a newspaper pot in my hand when
it needs water. (One can keep one the same size
filled with dry planting mix and no plant in it
nearby for comparison.)

Not being an origami wizard, I found that a piece
of duct tape on the folded bottom and a couple
of rubber bands simplifies newspaper pot construction
and potting up into them. It is wonderfully easy
to remove the root ball intact, without root damage,
when it is time to plant out or pot up to a bigger
size pot. One simply removes the duct tape, unfolds
the bottom, and carefully unrolls the newspaper
until the root ball rolls out into your hand.

If a tennis ball can seems ridiculously tall for the
amount of time that you have until plant out,
maybe only use 2/3 of the height of the tennis ball
can when making the newspaper pots. That still
keeps them narrow enough to fit many under lights
or on a window sill.

[lumierefrere]

Thanks for all the detailed info. I'm sure others will find it very helpful but it sounds like work to me. If I wanted big containers I would just go get more 32 oz styrofoam cups. I don't even get newspapers (full of lies).

[dcarch]

I hope you don't consider me hijacking this thread.

I am in Z6/7 and have to deal with when to start seeds, transplant into bigger pots and when to risk putting seedlings outside in ground. The struggle to try for the earliest possible tomatoes in my zone drove me to develop a removable greenhouse concept. (posted in Undercover Gardening forum)

This year I started seeds on 2/11 and I put the seedlings in ground on 4/1. Today 5/1 I have a few blossoms already on a few plants.

Becasue of the concept's success, next season I am going to try starting seeds on 1/15 or earlier.

dcarch

[dice]

"Thanks for all the detailed info. I'm sure others will find it very helpful but it sounds like work to me."

Not much work, really. One can do it while watching or
listening to the weather report, the Yankees/Mets
game, NPR, Rite of Spring, or whatever.

"If I wanted big containers I would just go get more 32 oz styrofoam cups."

Newspaper pots are more customizable as to
height/diameter ratio. And if you have newspapers
around, you never run out of pots before you
run out of seedlings to repot.

" I don't even get newspapers (full of lies)."

Could be an issue. I bet many of your neighbors
do, though.

To try one, borrow part of a newspaper and see for
yourself. 3 pages is about right, one single page
in between the halves of a double page. Fold it
in half twice the long way, roll it up around a can,
add a rubber band, fold the bottom up, stick on
tape. If the can is quite small, tomato paste size
for example, skip the single page in the center, a
folded double page will be thick enough.

Just a thought.