Purple underneath seedling leaves, then they curl up and die

[FILMNET]

Too rich dirt, Too fast growing, I never fertilize before the last week before going in grown.Then very weak fish fertilizer feed from the bottom of small pots. Never water from top as you are doing now

[amideutch]

Nathan, I have read reports on various forums that Ocean Forest is to hot (Fert Wise) for seedlings. I use Light Warrior only in Cow Pots and the seedlings love it. The last thing they need right now is more ferts. As far as the "DIP" is concerned you don't need it until you plant your seedlings to their final resting place. The Light Warrior has more than enough PGPR (Plant Growth Promoting Rhizobacteria) and ferts in the mix to last till you get ready to plant the seedlings which for me are usually 6 weeks old.

I know where you are comming from my friend but you need to throttle back and let the plants get established before adding amendments. Ami

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by RayR

Naysen, did you pull up any of the affected seedlings and look at the roots? If they are not white and healthy, there's something wrong down below. I agree with Raybo, they certainly look stressed. I'd lay off any ferts, it might be aggravating the problem, they shouldn't need anything at that size considering the mix you are using. Purpling under the leaves and necrosis would indicate a serious phosphorus uptake problem at the roots, but what is causing it is the question. If it's not cold soil then acidic conditions or wet feet are other possibilities.
I had a problem last year with some seedlings where the cotyledons wound start to turn brown at the tips and then the whole cot would turn black and die. No purple under the true leave though. Those seedlings just withered away and died Never got an answer on that one, just chalked it up to the mysterious crud disease.

Ray, I'm a little shy about pulling up the seedlings at this point, as even on the many plants that are experiencing leaf necrosis, I still find the rest of the plant seems reasonably healthy. I should probably post a few more pictures of the seedling population in general. I'll try to do that later. I'll not feed the plants anything but water. BTW, I thought FoxFarms Light Warrior was a fairly low intensity starting medium (not hot). That's the larger component of my grow media. I'll keep a close eye out for damp feet (as well as add more Perlite to the next batch of pots per Ray N.'s suggestion). I haven't tested the pH, but I'm relying on the FoxFarms folks to keep the pH in the range they advertise, which should be perfect for tomatoes. I'll double check them on it soon.

Thanks, Naysen

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by mcsee

Naysen - Just a thought, ask your wife if she has any Cinnamon and dust some of your remaining seedlings and mix with it and see if they succumb too. Cinnamon is a natural fungicide and helps where Damping Off is a problem.

MCSee, Ok. I'll try this on the next seedling to show signs, which I'm sure I'll have the moment I peek through the door this morning (haven't yet checked on them.) I'm not so sure that I'm dealing with "damping-off" or fungus, but it's possible. Roughly how much dust do you spread -- a tsp? Do you mix with water or just sprinkle over?
Thanks,
Naysen

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by FILMNET

Too rich dirt, Too fast growing, I never fertilize before the last week before going in grown.Then very weak fish fertilizer feed from the bottom of small pots. Never water from top as you are doing now

Filmnet, I had encountered the problem before adding any fert, and it's just been one half-strength dose of kelp/fish. I wasn't planning on any more fertilizer for at least a month. Folks are suggesting even less, and I'll follow the advice.

Now I have been watering from the top with a baster to evenly spread. There are 40 seedlings all crammed into my grow room, and time is somewhat short with a new kid and a busy job. Were I to bottom water every plot, it would take hours transferring them out to the garage and back. If I am very diligent about watering the plants only when they need water, is there any major disadvantage to top watering over bottom? I realize, it does mean that one can more easily over-water.
Thanks,
Naysen

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by amideutch

Nathan, I have read reports on various forums that Ocean Forest is to hot (Fert Wise) for seedlings. I use Light Warrior only in Cow Pots and the seedlings love it. The last thing they need right now is more ferts. As far as the "DIP" is concerned you don't need it until you plant your seedlings to their final resting place. The Light Warrior has more than enough PGPR (Plant Growth Promoting Rhizobacteria) and ferts in the mix to last till you get ready to plant the seedlings which for me are usually 6 weeks old.

I know where you are comming from my friend but you need to throttle back and let the plants get established before adding amendments. Ami

Ami-

Ok, no more Mycos, root excelurators, or week ferts. Just water. I had seen a recent TV post (http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=21465) with a lot of seedling eye-candy, and I got hooked on the idea of using Ocean Forest. Damon used 100% Ocean Forest on those beautiful tomato seedlings (no amendments beyond). I thought the soil seemed to heavy and rich, so I mixed it with 4 part Light Warrior, 3 parts Ocean Forest. I figured, I would give the seedlings 1 does of the various amendments I have and then a 2nd before transplanting to ground in several weeks. I never planned on adding a dilute kelp/fish application but decided to at the last moment based on my readings about phosphate deficiency and purple leaves; several folks mentioned they fed with fish and/or kelp and saw the problem go away or recede.

I have a 2nd wave of seedlings to pot up in a week or two, so I'll try zero amendments on those and it will be easy to compare results.

Thanks,
Naysen

[Sun City Linda]

Nayson- I too think you are "over loving" those babies. I really dont know what I am doing, have no light set up, use jiffy pellets and top water. Despite this I routinely produce 150-200 tomato seedlings that look like small trees and grow well. My babies go outside in natural light unless it is pouring rain or under 50 degrees. Then I carry them inside and place them all around a full spectrum type Ott light as much as is possible until I go to bed. I dont fert at all until they are at least a several weeks old and then very lightly. They do get a little purple sometimes if it is really cold but they seem to outgrow it. Occasionally I will lose one, or a grasshopper will take the top off one but other than that, this works well in my climate. Try it!

[z_willus_d]

Linda, I'd say you're loving enough. All that toting back and forth to give them natural sun, that's love my dear. I've always sprouted my seedlings with at least some amount of sunlight, but these pots are getting 100% artificial, albeit the best money can buy. Maybe I should drag them out this weekend to get some of the real stuff. (danger there is always that they pic up something bad in the air.)
Thanks, Naysen

[Sun City Linda]

Nayson, yep I love those babies! First time my grown daughter came to my small, no garage house last year I had nearly 300 seedlings, inside everywhere! She dubbed me "the plant hoarder." I do think the outside toughens them up some. My babies dont have the extensive leafy green of plants I see at the big box stores but they have a much stronger stem, and the important thing: they grow well and I get maters!

[velikipop]

The purple on the underside is usually produced by cold soil. It will disappear and not have and significant impact on the plant once you transplant.

[creister]

Try leaving your fan off for a few days, those leaves look wind beaten. I have that happen some when hardening off. Believe me, I live in a windy locale, and that is what some of the leaves look like.

The purple will go away after a few weeks in warm sunshine. I like to use a mix of 3 parts potting mix and 1 part earthworm castings. Works great.

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by velikipop

The purple on the underside is usually produced by cold soil. It will disappear and not have and significant impact on the plant once you transplant.

Yes, the cold soil explanation is what I read too. Sadly, I've measured my soil all hours of the day and night and have never come up with a temperature less than 65F. I have a nice meat thermometer that's been drafted to the cause. The room stays at above 68F due to the lights, etc.

Must be something else.
Thanks for posting the info.
-naysen

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by creister

Try leaving your fan off for a few days, those leaves look wind beaten. I have that happen some when hardening off. Believe me, I live in a windy locale, and that is what some of the leaves look like.

The purple will go away after a few weeks in warm sunshine. I like to use a mix of 3 parts potting mix and 1 part earthworm castings. Works great.

Creister, I too love the castings, but this year I decided no ?-marks (and fresh casting can be that with the bio-activity and all). So I stuck with the best of the best potting mix for the baseline. I have been running the fans about half the time the light's on (18-hours). I'll try cutting that time in half and only blowing each rack for a couple hours at night. Thanks for the tip.
-naysen

[amideutch]

This is from D. Jones Site[Fusion Power] (Selectedplants.com) Ami

Help! My seedlings are turning purple, what do I do? This is usually a result of some combination of cool temperatures, low phosphorus or micronutrients, and too much light. Some varieties seem to do this routinely. High Anthocyanin varieties have naturally purple leaves and stems. Purple color usually appears on the seed leaves, not so much on the true leaves. Eventually the plants grow out of it. The best solution is to use a good micronutrient supplement with extra phosphorus to water with. You can also toss a handful of rusty nails in a jug of water and use it to water the seedlings. They seem to like the extra iron. Consider also the water source you are using. If it is clorinated or has an excess of salt, it can build up in the pots and cause serious problems. You could try flushing the pots by deliberately overwatering till it leaches the contaminants from the soil. Immediately follow up with a nutrient supplement if you do this as it will also leach most of the nitrogen from the soil. You might also consider spraying with seaweed emulsion. If you are keeping the plants under 24 hour lights, turn them off for 8 hours per day. For growing in a greenhouse, see "What effect do gases such as ozone, ethylene, and natural gas have on tomatoes?"

[z_willus_d]

Ami-

Good stuff. I had read about the cold temps and the low P, but I hadn't encountered the micronutrients and light angles. I'm fairly certain the seedlings aren't suffering for micronutrients, but light that's something else. I am hitting them with a very intense T5 light for 18 hours a day. Perhaps that would explain the purple color. What D. Jones don't say is whether too much of the purple color syndrome can result in leaf necrosis of the type I'm seeing. I suppose I should start cutting the lights out some. Maybe move from an 18-on/6-off to a 14-on/10-off.

Thanks!
Naysen