What is the truth about container size?

[Tania]

Originally Posted by stromato

ty, Tania, for sharing the benefit of your experience with us. Just wondering—have you ever tried putting 8 plants in your 40 gallon containers? I’m speculating that the plants, spreading their roots through each other over 40 gallons and having the advantages of the large mass of 40 gallons of soil mix, might do much better than 8 plants each in their own 5 gallon pot.

No, I only grow up to 4 plants in the largest containers. As I never prune my tomato plants, they grow so big, it is simply not enough space for 8 plants. 4 are already a dense foliage mass that makes it very hard to see which fruit belongs to which plant.

I do get a very good yield from my 5 gal containers. The trick with smaller containers is to use a very good mix that is light and fluffy and has good water retention capacity and great porosity.

I tell my customers that the better the mix, the better the end results are in smaller containers.

[JamesL]

I don't prune either, other than for diseased foliage, air flow.
Haven't seen anyone prune to single stem in a 5 gal sip/swc. Which doesn't mean it isn't worth trying on at least a few plants.
My purpose for growing in Sips is to avoid work. No weeding, no watering.... Pruning involves work!
Take a look at the pruning video here,
http://betterheirlooms.com/blog/
And Carolyn's thread here.
http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=18309
I would think pruning to single stem in a greenhouse is going to be different than doing it outside. With respect to sunscald, etc

[AKmark]

How do you keep unpruned giant plants watered in containers? I have plants that are over 10' and I could not imagine the watering needs of one of these left unpruned.
I am curious to hear yield numbers from those who do not prune, I am not convinced. I am tracking Early Girl, Bush Early Girl, 1884, Caspian Pink, Mrs Maxwell's, Brandyboy, and still have many that have not had tomatoes harvested yet , so I can track them too. I recently viewed several greenhouses here in AK and those who prune seem to be growing more tomatoes than leaves.
It would also be interesting to see more than one plant in a 20 gallon container, other than a cherry tomato, that was at full potential. Hmmmm... I'm no expert, but I have observed much different growth patterns than reported on this thread.

[AKmark]

The two plants are both pruned, the plant on the left(Brandyboy) is getting its tops trained back down toward the ground forming an S since the tops were at the top of the greenhouse.The plant on the right (Mrs Maxwell's) had its tops chopped and two lower suckers replaced them as the main growing tops. At any rate both are in 20 gallon pots and look to big for the pot already and I cannot fathom them at this potential with another plant taking up space and nutrient, and both plants have over 50 tomatoes already set with a few consumed. I think achieving max. plant potential is paramount to achieving yield potential in any given available space

Not that I'm correct in my hypothesis, just pointing out observation, and yes, I have more than one plant in a few pots, so my point is not just a guess either. This also may not hold true where root capacity is nearly unlimited, such as in a garden or monster container.

I should also mention that variety plays a big part too, some will varieties will, and do, perform well with two in a container, smaller types of course. I thought about my post in hindsight and thought maybe my giant strain examples were not the norm, both MM and BB, 1884 are huge plants compared to most others

[cythaenopsis]

I guess there's still a bit of controversy around pruning. I do wonder if it's partly circumstantial. If someone is doing everything right and doesn't prune, perhaps there's enough sunlight and foliage to receive it along with nutritious soil+fert to allow for prolific fruiting. But from what I've seen in all I've read so far, it's rather tricky to find that magic blend. "Compost tea" from very fertile compost is sometimes the magic bullet, something I'd like to try next year.

Mark, didn't you report about cutting back the top of one plant that was hardly producing and then it took off like mad producing fruits down below? So there's one case where it certainly made sense.

But yes, it does bring to question if there's some kind of trade-off, or if it's just about maximizing potential. Do indeterminate tomatoes from a high yield plant that isn't pruned taste as good as ones that were pruned back? A number of people I've observed (both in web blogs and YT videos) have reported better tasting larger tomatoes from plants where the suckers were pulled. They were willing to sacrifice a little yield for that.

I also wonder if there's some sense in early sucker removal, so that you're allowing the plant to devote itself more towards building itself up, then once it surpasses a certain threshold allow it to grow out some suckers into fruit producing trusses. It doesn't look like there's a notable disadvantage to a tomato growing near the top versus one growing near the bottom.

I pruned early and I got one lone tomato that was tasty but small, with new tomatoes coming 8+ weeks after the seedling had been put into its final container. Finally the fruits are appearing in greater numbers and I'm hoping in about 4-6 weeks I'll have some ready to pick.

[JamesL]

AKMark,
You are clearly nailing it, so if I am you, I am not changing a thing!
How do you keep unpruned giant plants watered in containers? - Easy, sub irrigate!. And add an auto watering system....
If you guys want the "gold standard" in sub irrigated both for plant size and yield, you need look no further than Raybo.
http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=28394
http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=28938

Although Virtex is no slouch this year either. Mix of different style and types of containers.
http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=28406
http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=28960

In some respects I think sub irrigated is night and day compared to top watered containers.

[AKmark]

I had a drip set up but I have so many different varieties I had to pull the plug on it because certain varieties do not react like others. For instance; if I watered a Caspian Pink like an Early Girl the Pink would look like a bomb blew it up, and If the EG had the CP treatment it would be a batch of BER. Most people who have large greenhouses up here use drips, but they also grow one or two varieties and can dial it in. I know others who have water troughs set-up under their medium, but also have been top watering because our long 20 hour day length days are harsh when it is sunny. I think I have it dialed more than most I visit but I work harder at it too.

[ArthurDent004]

Originally Posted by Tania

I do get a very good yield from my 5 gal containers.

Tania - Can you tell me how big the reservoir for your 5 gal containers is? I made my first 5 gallon SWP but noticed my reservoir only holds just over one gallon. I was using a 24 ounces yogurt cup for my wicking cup that's 4.5 inches high. Before my Sophie's Choice plant was decimated by downy mildew and had to be destroyed I was putting in a half gallon of water every two or three days. Even then I don't think I paid enough attention to watering because of the 20 tomatoes I got from the plant, 15 had BER and 5 had splits at the stem end. I wanted to make a new 5 gallon SWC but increase the water reservoir to 2 gallons. I don't think this will be feasible because I determined I'd have to have a 7 inch tall wicking cup to do this.

[Tania]

ArthurDent,

My containers are not swc. Just the usual black plastic nursery pots.

So they hold about 4 gal of soil mix.

I never have BER for some reason. It must be my magic mix formula! LOL

Tatiana

[akgardengirl]

Did I miss the recipe for your magic mix somewhere Tania? I would like to try it if you want to give it out.
Sue B.

[Tania]

Sue, no, you did not miss anything - it is actually very simple, and I use the same recipe every year and recommend it to all my customers and gardening friends.

1 part vermiculite
2 parts perlite
3-4 parts peat moss
6-8 parts compost or composted manure

For each 10 gallons of mix I also add

1 cup alfalfa meal
1/2 cup bone meal
1/2 cup wood ashes
1/4 cup dolomite lime

I may also add 1-2 cups of coffee grinds, if I have them close by.

[akgardengirl]

Thanks Tania...made a copy of this. Next year's new recipe!
Sue

[cythaenopsis]

Originally Posted by cythaenopsis

I'm using a set of small SWC's, that are somewhere between 5-10 gallons (it wasn't stated on the label so I have to guess).

I have to correct myself. I got one more of these containers and discovered that they are 24 quart (6 gallon). The reservoir openings to the soil aren't very large. In my case they seem to be "adequate", but I decided to modify this new one so that there will be better wick action of the water from the reservoir into the soil.


I didn't have time to hunt down a lot of different ingredients, so I went with a decent organic potting mix, then added a cup of Jobe's Organic Tomato food with a cup full of finely ground eggshells. Next year I'm definitely going to add composted cow manure!

[stromato]

My situation leaves me not only interested in the lower limits of container size, but also with a very low priority, within reason, given to yield per plant. I’d like the maximum variety of plants in the minimum space that still produces tomatoes with the taste and approximate size expected for each type.

So if I had a choice between AKmark’s one plant in a 20 gal container having fifty tomatoes (the normal grower’s ideal result—pretty impressive, AKmark) and four plants in that container each producing an anemic yield of a dozen or less tomatoes, the latter would serve my purposes better.

It appears as if jamming a bunch of plants in a sub-irrigated container, like an earthtainer, may give better performance than a multitude of 5 gal swc’s each containing one plant. However, the experienced growers here seem to be dismissive of the notion of putting a bunch of plants in one container as impractical, since it would result in a mess of intermingled vines needing difficult pruning. I have a simple trellis design in mind, however, that could effectively keep at least single stem plants trained properly even in a nutty multiple plants jammed in one container setup. It would not be pretty, though.


But JamesL has pointed out that pruning=work, which is a very, very bad thing since, of course, work=time. So I am hoping that the pruning method described by cythaenopsis, early sucker removal, requires less work than conventional pruning techniques.

Does early sucker removal pruning take less time than traditional pruning?


Thank you, Tania, for sharing your recipe. Would it work well in a sub-irrigated swc? Maybe not the composted manure option?

[jasonig]

Originally Posted by AKmark

How do you keep unpruned giant plants watered in containers? I have plants that are over 10' and I could not imagine the watering needs of one of these left unpruned.
I am curious to hear yield numbers from those who do not prune, I am not convinced. I am tracking Early Girl, Bush Early Girl, 1884, Caspian Pink, Mrs Maxwell's, Brandyboy, and still have many that have not had tomatoes harvested yet , so I can track them too. I recently viewed several greenhouses here in AK and those who prune seem to be growing more tomatoes than leaves.
It would also be interesting to see more than one plant in a 20 gallon container, other than a cherry tomato, that was at full potential. Hmmmm... I'm no expert, but I have observed much different growth patterns than reported on this thread.

I haven't started pruning yet. 20 gallon pots. Been in 90s every day so watering morning and night