Calcium nitrate and BER: how much?? - Page 2

digsdirt · June 30, 2015

Quote:

So, should I drop the fruit that has heavy BER in hopes the plant is now more mature and receiving TTF in addition to the original Calcium addition. Seems like with the San Marzanos I might as well drop the fruit since they are pretty much unusable.

Drop as in remove them from the plant and pitch them? Oh yeah. No reason at all to leave them on the plants and pitching them as soon as the BER symptoms show up reduces the stress on the plant and on the later fruit.

But for future reference it is possible to grow San Marzanos and other pastes in EBs without getting BER. Containers on concrete is always problematic because of all the extra heat generated and radiated. And an automated watering system doesn't mean you won't still have inconsistent soil moisture problems, especially if it is set up to water the top of the containers rather than down the EB tube. Then there are the issues of soil-less mix used to fill the containers, nutritional supplements used, how the containers are covered/mulched, etc.

Dave

Bipetual · June 30, 2015

My first year with self-watering containers we had record-breaking heat and I saw some BER at the beginning of the season, but it got better when the weather improved. So your efforts to cool down your containers should help. I am by no means an expert, but a lot of people have said that first-year earthboxes or earthtrainers have BER because the lime hasn't really had a chance to break down. So it's possible you could grow the same plants next year and have no trouble, but it depends on how risk-averse you are.

Bush Big Boy didn't do well for me, either. In fact, because I had so much trouble with foliage diseases, I stopped growing a lot of determinates. By the time the bottom of the plant turned yellow, there was nothing left! I tried some compact indeterminates then, and Jet Star hybrid did really well for me. It got to be slightly taller than I am, counting the height of the container. Celebrity hybrid didn't get quite as tall but did well. I have seen Celebrity described as both a determinate and semi determinate, and it also did well. Celebrity has more disease resistance (although not to early blight or septoria) but I thought Jet Star tasted better and yielded a little more.

Carolyn, our resident Tomato Queen, noted in her book that an indeterminate heirloom paste called Heidi seemed to taste great and did not suffer BER in her garden. I have some fuzzy recollection, although I'm not positive, that others may have said an heirloom called Martino's Roma did not seem to get BER for them.

Good luck with your garden. If you are having that kind of heat and you've managed to keep your plants alive, I think you're doing great!

Winemaker · June 30, 2015

Drop does mean remove. With Winemaking we drop excess fruit to increase the quality of the remaining fruit and ensure proper ripening. In the case of the BER fruit, they are headed for the green recycle bin. I don't get heat conduction from the concrete court they are sitting on as the Earthtainers are about 4 inches above the concrete and on plywood that sits on the furniture dolly. I think we are in for some consistent 90+ weather here and then periodically we get a heat spike to just over 100 when there is no Delta breeze.
I measured some temps today. Outside temp is currently 105F. Outside of Earthtainers is 104-105. Water temp in reservoir is 95. Soil temp about 4 inches down is 92.
One change I think I will make is to slightly shorten the auto watering tubes so that I get a slightly higher fill level without going out of the drain holes. My timer only turns the water on each day at 5 pm and it is on for an hour. Probably should have bought the hose timer that allows twice a day. I am not comfortable leaving the system pressurized all the time in case there is a failure and my water bill here in California would skyrocket.

December 22, 2015

The inconsistent moisture theory isn't one that I sustain, personally. I consistently didn't water our tomatoes much at all (and we consistently didn't get rain), and Martino's Roma and Pomodoro San Marzano still got it really badly (almost every fruit, for a couple months). When it cooled down, they did better. I tend to think heat and drought early in the season (continuing through most of it) were the promoters in this case (that and too much calcium—not too little—as well as too much potassium with probably too little nitrogen to balance the potassium and calcium). All in all, though, it was only a few susceptible varieties that got it. Black Plum had a few BER tomatoes, but most were fine. All the other varieties were perfectly fine (with maybe a one-fruit exception, probably on a potato-leafed Delicious plant and an every-fruit exception on a yellow Roma* that I pulled early due to every fruit getting BER and dropping long before maturing).

*When I say a yellow Roma, I really mean the variety Roma (I don't believe in calling anything Roma except the actual variety called Roma). Mine produced a small, yellow tomato last year, and I saved the seeds to grow them again this year.

Imthechuck · December 23, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by ginger2778

My point being that EBs and other SWCs are notorious for getting BER the first year, on the earliest fruits, but after that there is enough lime in the mix, that the Calcinit addition will do the job.
Keep them hydrated and they will grow out of the BER anyway.

I second this comment pertaining to earthboxes

I also mix about 1 tablespoon per gallon and feed my 5 gallon swc plants from the top

Cole_Robbie · December 23, 2015

BER is a lot worse on the earliest fruits of any plant. It's also worse on paste and elongated plum-shaped varieties.

Neither of those statements is a contradiction of anything said here, but they can be intervening variables.

AKmark · December 23, 2015

The first 20 years I grew tomatoes I got BER on many varieties. The last several years I began to improve my results, and the last three years I virtually had no BER at any point in the season.
I add Calcium Nitrate every time I water via injectors, it is what the experts call for, they have the labs, the scientists, the control mechanisms to ensure good studies. Of note, I grow in promix.

The rapid growth stage is where everyone runs into trouble, and the mysterious fixes come after that has ceased. Just think of a season where your first fruits are good too, it adds up?
In soil, I recommend a soil test, many folks seem to have enough calcium in their soil. Other than that, don't grow rapidly growing plants on the dry side, that has to come later, or BER is just horrible with some varieties.
We deal with smoldering temps in our greenhouses, watering needs like no other, etc, we grow almost a 1000 plants now, and about a hundred varieties per year. I write this based on what I have done to increase my own success, and feel pretty good when I walk the plants.
Edit here, I also want to add that the taste is superior when the plants are very healthy.

jpop · January 2, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by amideutch

What was the name of the affected variety. Also Unsulphured Black Strap Molasses is a good source of calcium and other micro nutrients.

http://patioofpots.blogspot.com/2013...-molasses.html

Ami

Good read Ami, thank you. Also, found that they reference a tensiometer and found another source that says 10-20 centibars is the optimum range for soil moisture when growing tomatoes. Any posters here using a tensiometer and if so, do your results show the same range?

December 22, 2015	#19
shule1 Guest Posts: n/a	The inconsistent moisture theory isn't one that I sustain, personally. I consistently didn't water our tomatoes much at all (and we consistently didn't get rain), and Martino's Roma and Pomodoro San Marzano still got it really badly (almost every fruit, for a couple months). When it cooled down, they did better. I tend to think heat and drought early in the season (continuing through most of it) were the promoters in this case (that and too much calcium—not too little—as well as too much potassium with probably too little nitrogen to balance the potassium and calcium). All in all, though, it was only a few susceptible varieties that got it. Black Plum had a few BER tomatoes, but most were fine. All the other varieties were perfectly fine (with maybe a one-fruit exception, probably on a potato-leafed Delicious plant and an every-fruit exception on a yellow Roma* that I pulled early due to every fruit getting BER and dropping long before maturing). When I say a yellow Roma, I really mean the variety Roma (I don't believe in calling anything Roma except the actual variety called Roma). Mine produced a small, yellow tomato last year, and I saved the seeds to grow them again this year. Last edited by shule1; December 23, 2015 at 07:13 AM.*

December 23, 2015	#22
AKmark Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Wasilla Alaska Posts: 2,010	The first 20 years I grew tomatoes I got BER on many varieties. The last several years I began to improve my results, and the last three years I virtually had no BER at any point in the season. I add Calcium Nitrate every time I water via injectors, it is what the experts call for, they have the labs, the scientists, the control mechanisms to ensure good studies. Of note, I grow in promix. The rapid growth stage is where everyone runs into trouble, and the mysterious fixes come after that has ceased. Just think of a season where your first fruits are good too, it adds up? In soil, I recommend a soil test, many folks seem to have enough calcium in their soil. Other than that, don't grow rapidly growing plants on the dry side, that has to come later, or BER is just horrible with some varieties. We deal with smoldering temps in our greenhouses, watering needs like no other, etc, we grow almost a 1000 plants now, and about a hundred varieties per year. I write this based on what I have done to increase my own success, and feel pretty good when I walk the plants. Edit here, I also want to add that the taste is superior when the plants are very healthy. Last edited by AKmark; December 23, 2015 at 04:46 PM.

June 30, 2015	#17
Bipetual Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Illinois, zone 5a Posts: 579	My first year with self-watering containers we had record-breaking heat and I saw some BER at the beginning of the season, but it got better when the weather improved. So your efforts to cool down your containers should help. I am by no means an expert, but a lot of people have said that first-year earthboxes or earthtrainers have BER because the lime hasn't really had a chance to break down. So it's possible you could grow the same plants next year and have no trouble, but it depends on how risk-averse you are. Bush Big Boy didn't do well for me, either. In fact, because I had so much trouble with foliage diseases, I stopped growing a lot of determinates. By the time the bottom of the plant turned yellow, there was nothing left! I tried some compact indeterminates then, and Jet Star hybrid did really well for me. It got to be slightly taller than I am, counting the height of the container. Celebrity hybrid didn't get quite as tall but did well. I have seen Celebrity described as both a determinate and semi determinate, and it also did well. Celebrity has more disease resistance (although not to early blight or septoria) but I thought Jet Star tasted better and yielded a little more. Carolyn, our resident Tomato Queen, noted in her book that an indeterminate heirloom paste called Heidi seemed to taste great and did not suffer BER in her garden. I have some fuzzy recollection, although I'm not positive, that others may have said an heirloom called Martino's Roma did not seem to get BER for them. Good luck with your garden. If you are having that kind of heat and you've managed to keep your plants alive, I think you're doing great!

June 30, 2015	#18
Winemaker Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: El Dorado Hills, Ca Posts: 47	Drop does mean remove. With Winemaking we drop excess fruit to increase the quality of the remaining fruit and ensure proper ripening. In the case of the BER fruit, they are headed for the green recycle bin. I don't get heat conduction from the concrete court they are sitting on as the Earthtainers are about 4 inches above the concrete and on plywood that sits on the furniture dolly. I think we are in for some consistent 90+ weather here and then periodically we get a heat spike to just over 100 when there is no Delta breeze. I measured some temps today. Outside temp is currently 105F. Outside of Earthtainers is 104-105. Water temp in reservoir is 95. Soil temp about 4 inches down is 92. One change I think I will make is to slightly shorten the auto watering tubes so that I get a slightly higher fill level without going out of the drain holes. My timer only turns the water on each day at 5 pm and it is on for an hour. Probably should have bought the hose timer that allows twice a day. I am not comfortable leaving the system pressurized all the time in case there is a failure and my water bill here in California would skyrocket.

December 23, 2015	#21
Cole_Robbie Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Illinois, zone 6 Posts: 8,407	BER is a lot worse on the earliest fruits of any plant. It's also worse on paste and elongated plum-shaped varieties. Neither of those statements is a contradiction of anything said here, but they can be intervening variables.