Tell me about your seeds

[Starlight]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Is this the Horshoe you speakof? If yes, I know him as Shoe and he's been one of my best seed producers fo over 10 years.

http://davesgarden.com/guides/author/horseshoe

Carolyn

Yep. The same Horseshoe. Great guy. I had copied and saved his method when he posted it, way.. way back then and have followed the steps ever since.

[seaeagle]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Carolyn already went into details, with pictures, in her Heirloom Tomato book, so not too eager to do it again.

But, first let me give you a Google search for fermentation:

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...f+tomato+seeds

And don't stop at just page one.

There are many many folks who have been using fermentation, some for many decades, and from that link above look for links from

SESE (Southern Exposure Seed Exchange)
Selected Plants, Fusion's website
kdcom, Keith Muellers website

And I don't go fetch it but go to Victory Seeds and find the article on fermentation

Some use other methods to process seeds, one of the most popular are oxidative methods such as using Comet or Oxi-clean,

My problem with those methods is that several folks, including myself, have tried to find data about the efficacy with TOMATO seeds and none has been found to date.

Whereas Dr Helene Dillard when she was at the USDA Geneva, NY station had contracts with either Campbell's of Heinz, I can't remember which, to study the efficacy of fermentation. Her scientific papers are no longer available online but I spoke with her several times when she gave me a rough picture about her results, which was good enough for me.

Commercial seed processing is an acid one and I wouldn't go there.

Fermentation is a natural process that appeals to many of us as you can also see with the Google link I put up.

Carolyn

I read some of the articles on fermentation.One expert says as soon as you see the fungal mat you are finished.

"In a few days, a layer of greyish-white mold forms on top of the water - a good sign. When that layer of mold covers the water's surface, fermentation is done. If you leave your seeds in the water beyond that point, they'll start to germinate, so be sure to check the jar often."

And others say to let the seeds ferment a few more days. I always let the ferment a a couple of days longer.So what is your opinion on this?I have some Cherokee Purple seeds that have a fungal mat now. Are the done?
Anyone else who has an opinion, would love to hear it too

[ContainerTed]

Originally Posted by TexasTycoon

P.S. Your third link is broken: http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/A...g_Fermentation

just tried that link and it works just fine.

[gunrunner]

Again Thanks all for all the great info. Don't thik I will try Betterboy after all.

Mike

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by seaeagle

I don't know who Horseshoe is but one of his favorite tomatoes is Abraham Lincoln

"Another favorite tomato, 'Abraham Lincoln', dates back a bit further to 1923. An excellent slicer with wonderful disease tolerance. I hope to have it growing in my garden for as many years as I have taste buds (or have friends who do!). The meat to juice ratio is perfect! Slicing into it your eyes will witness a meaty fruit with just enough juice to transport its flavor to your tongue. From that point on you’ll discover a taste that is slightly acidic yet complemented with just enough sugar so as to not offend those of us with sensitive stomachs! An exceptional delight in the garden as well as on your plate! A friend of mine insists this tomato is “a little bit of heaven on a hot day”! By the way, “Abe” (like RCML mentioned above) produces fruit all summer long!"

Sounds like he has the original Abraham Lincoln and the picture of it sliced was beautiful and the plant was full of tomatoes.Probably why old Abe isn't more popular is because most people try the wrong version which seems to be sold at most seed companies.

First, Shoe does have a website, but what he sells off of that are tractor parts, etc. He also has a stand at his place in Efland, NC where he sells tomato seedlings and fruits. Gets most of his seeds from me.

He has written articles for Dave's Garden,

No, I don't think he has any original Abraham Lincoln, he doesn't sell seeds at all. If I remember, I can come back and give some history about Abraham Lincoln, etc.

Carolyn, just rushed today and for the next couple of weeks since she MUST watch the tennis from Wimbledon.

[Salaam]

Originally Posted by gunrunner

I have grown tomatoes for many years but have never saved seeds. Was wondering, do you notice any loss of plant quality after growing saved seeds? Also, I just watched a vid on youtube where a guy took and tomato cut it in half and rubbed it on a paper towel to remove the seeds. Then he let the paper towel dry for several days then folded it up and put it in a plastic bag to save for next year. Is this a good method? Looks fairly easy to me, just wondered if it would produce a good plant this way?

Thanks
Mike

Given the original question, it's worth mentioning that historically, one of the goals of saving seeds, in addition to simply having seeds to plant for the next cycle, is to improve plant quality by saving the seeds from the best plants. So actually, if you save seeds, you'll end up with better plant quality, providing you save seeds from the "best" plants, and you're not too restrictive in your definition of "best" so as to lose variety.

[seaeagle]

Ok I think I will answer my own question here on how long to ferment tomato seeds.According to the 3 University research reports I read tomato seeds should be fermented for no longer than 3 days for best germination rates. One even said one or two days So it has been 3 days so now I rinse and get my wax paper ready

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by seaeagle

I read some of the articles on fermentation.One expert says as soon as you see the fungal mat you are finished.

"In a few days, a layer of greyish-white mold forms on top of the water - a good sign. When that layer of mold covers the water's surface, fermentation is done. If you leave your seeds in the water beyond that point, they'll start to germinate, so be sure to check the jar often."

And others say to let the seeds ferment a few more days. I always let the ferment a a couple of days longer.So what is your opinion on this?I have some Cherokee Purple seeds that have a fungal mat now. Are the done?
Anyone else who has an opinion, would love to hear it too

I don't know who the experts are you refer to and I don't know if I'd be called an expert myself, but I have saved seeds for over 4,000 varieties, I do have an advanced degree in Microbiology and I do understand the mechanics of fermentation from the biological and biochemical aspects. And I have taught both med and college students same.

What is the goal of using fermentation to process tomato seeds? it's to have the fungi AND bacteria that are present in the air land on top of the tomato gunk and eventually produce enzymes that will break apart the tomato remnents always present and to remove the gel capsules from the seeds and to remove most of any tomato pathogens still attached to the seed coat, and all of that is done under anaerobic ( without O2)) conditions.

Does a mat always form atop the tomato gunk? NO. it depends on how many are in the air at any one time and also the pH of the tomato gunk. So you can get just little clumps on top of a very watery surface.

Initially the gunk is fullof 02 and after a true mat forms usually the top 1/3 will be oxygenated. Different fungal and bacteria species can be either strict aeobes, they need 02 to metabolize and replicate, or anaerobes, and some of each are called facultative since they can switch their metabolism from one to the other.

First, the 02 in the upper layer is used up by the aerobic organisms, but it takes a few days for that to happen, and also depends on the ambient temps and how thick the gunk is.

Then anaerobic fermentation takes over and the organisms, still at the top, make enzymes for the fermentative pathways, there are several with differentend products, that results in the destruction of tomato tissues, releasing any adhered seeds, as well as removing the seed gel capsules.

You know when fermentaion is working when you see gas bubbles on the inside of the container and you observe seeds falling to the clear area at the bottom of the container.

I think that covers fermentation and I'm not going to go into what one does when it's known that fermentation is complete, unless someone wants me to, but right now it's not all that high on my prirority list.

Summary? I don't agree with yourexperts and am sticking to my story.

Carolyn

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by seaeagle

Ok I think I will answer my own question here on how long to ferment tomato seeds.According to the 3 University research reports I read tomato seeds should be fermented for no longer than 3 days for best germination rates. One even said one or two days So it has been 3 days so now I rinse and get my wax paper ready

We posted 3 min apart and I wrote a very long post for you,

That's pure ridiculousness to ferment no longer than 3 days, since the ambient temps and thickness of the gunk and all else I posted about in terms of variables do obtain.

You have no idea of any of the conditions they were using, none at all to say their conditions were what you read at those sites.''For instance, I livein zone 5 and always had to ferment mine for at least 5 days even longer when the temps dropped in the Fall.

While someone in S CA or the Gulf States or in FLwould have very different ambient temps, and again,few folks ever mention how important the thickness of the gunk is.

Summary?

You do what you think is best.

Carolyn

[seaeagle]

I guess I should post the links so you know I'm not making this up

I do think all assumed room temperature or above when fermenting

http://www.jsd-africa.com/Jsda/V10N4...tatioNTime.pdf

http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/a...bles/SEED.html

http://extension.oregonstate.edu/gar...eeds-next-year

http://www.lsuagcenter.com/en/our_of...mmer-Seeds.htm

http://www.southernexposure.com/savi...s-ezp-177.html

[seaeagle]

And just to be sure I checked with Farmer Fred.Here is a quote from Farmer Fred:

" Don't leave those seeds in the container for more than three days; they might germinate"

http://farmerfredrant.blogspot.com/2...ving-tips.html

[digsdirt]

If you are just fermenting your seeds to get the gel coating off them then 2-3 days may be sufficient depending on ambient air temps and air exposure. I've done it but found I had to scrub them a great deal more and they were still sticky.

But if the goal in fermenting your seeds is to disinfect them as well then longer time is needed and the minimum recommend time is 7 days to allow for sufficient bacteria to build up. Farmer Fred doesn't discuss disinfection. Neither does Aggie-Hort. or any of the other links posted above. They are all about gel removal. So depends on what your goal is but why waste the time doing it if you aren't going to allow sufficient time for disinfection? Especially if you will be trading seeds. Why would you want seeds that hadn't been disinfected too?

I suppose a case could be made for a short fermentation just to break down the gel coating - although even that isn't guaranteed with only 3 days - and then use one of the other methods of disinfection on them. But why over-complicate the process.

Dave

[seaeagle]

Originally Posted by digsdirt

If you are just fermenting your seeds to get the gel coating off them then 2-3 days may be sufficient depending on ambient air temps and air exposure. I've done it but found I had to scrub them a great deal more and they were still sticky.

But if the goal in fermenting your seeds is to disinfect them as well then longer time is needed and the minimum recommend time is 7 days to allow for sufficient bacteria to build up. Farmer Fred doesn't discuss disinfection. Neither does Aggie-Hort. or any of the other links posted above. They are all about gel removal. So depends on what your goal is but why waste the time doing it if you aren't going to allow sufficient time for disinfection? Especially if you will be trading seeds. Why would you want seeds that hadn't been disinfected too?

I suppose a case could be made for a short fermentation just to break down the gel coating - although even that isn't guaranteed with only 3 days - and then use one of the other methods of disinfection on them. But why over-complicate the process.

Dave

Journal of Sustainable Development in Africa research report concluded;

CONCLUSION
The study showed that tomato seeds can be fermented for up to three days without affecting seed
viability. Seeds fermented for one day had the highest
germination percentage, while those fermented
for four days had the lowest germination percentage. Farmers can use this technology as a way of
improving their retained seed quality since fermentation is known to break dormancy and kill seed-borne
pathogens.

I think when the term fermentation of tomato seeds is used it is implied that it kills seed-borne pathogens.

Even Southern Exposure Seed Exchange says ferment for 2 or 3 days and they are well respected seed company and I am confident they wouldn't cut the process short and pass on infected seed to their customers..

Not trying to rock the boat here , just trying to get helpful information out there:

[digsdirt]

Not trying to rock the boat here , just trying to get the right information out:

Yeah, actually you are trying to rock the boat. But that's ok as long as we all keep in mind that there is no such thing as "the right information" as in an absolute truth.

It is all just opinion, some less or more valuable than others. And since like all info it is subject to individual interpretation and assumptions, individual value sets, and lots of variables, we each have to choose our own path.

Dave

[Bipetual]

Originally Posted by AlittleSalt

I am at multiple stages of saving tomato seeds. I could show each step in pictures if anyone is interested.

That would be really cool of you, Robert. I know when the time comes, I would definitely use it, even though I only have two OP plants right now.