Tomato Plant Nutrient Uptake?

[RayR]

A lot of good points made here. Mitch you've got a hell of a job ahead of you. experimenting.

To further complicate matters, you don't know what a plant requires every step of the way in its life cycle. How are you going to adjust for that so you are not going to overdo or underdo any one or more nutrients? Are you going to grow with synthetics, organics or a combination of both? Are you going to use microbial inoculants whether by commercial inoculants, composts/teas, extracts or worm castings? Is the goal to get close to optimal growth and yield regardless of fruit quality or to achieve the highest quality/ high BRIX fruit?


On growing media. you might want to check out CANNATALK magazine #26. A couple good articles on growing media and design.
http://www.cannagardening.com/cannatalk/cannatalk_26

[AKmark]

Canna also carries an extremely great line of products, most people who use it grows pot, but nonetheless it interchanges to the tomato very nicely.

[BajaMitch]

Oops, duplicated the post...I don't know how to delete a post on this forum yet.

[BajaMitch]

There is plenty of data in the form of graphs and tables that indicate rates/proportions of macronutrient uptake for tomato plants in general, usually bracketed by time periods within the season period.Accordingly, if one were to provide/apply nutrients on periodic basis, the abovementioned info could serve as a sound guide. Actually, for the 4 self-watering containers I started on July 1, 2015, they were fertilized according to a 5 period schedule.First time I have done that.

But, if the common practice of providing all or most all nutrients from the outset is used, such as the practice employed by the EarthBox and the EarthTainer, then trying to fertilize in order to match actual real time plant requirements is moot or irrelevant. My end game is to try to avoid having to do periodic feeding.

It is commonly attested that the EB, ET, and many other similar container methods can be fairly reliable and attain good to excellent results in general is empirically supportive of either no significant need to match real time plant requirements for good to excellent (not perfect) results so long as total adequate nutrients are already present (in the requisite sufficient form) in the soil at all times. Personally, I haven’t really seen or come by much documentation that indicates an absolute or even necessary need to periodically feed the plant in such a way as to match plant requirement every step of the way in its life cycle. However, documentation shows that periodic feeding with general levels of accuracy does increase yields.

One of my experiments next year is to do periodic feeding on one container to compare my results to the another container with the same total nutrients blended into the mix at the start. As mentioned above, all my 4 containers have been periodically fed so I have nothing to compare periodic feeding to today.

I will be using a combination of synthetics and organics next year.

With regard to microbial inoculants and a BRIX approach, I am going to save that for the following year, or for the year after next. I want to see what kind of results I get without them first; also to establish a base line point of reference. I will take what I learn from that, apply that knowledge to the following years’ efforts, and will try inoculants and a BRIX type approach when I think my experimental progress has been sufficient up to that point to appropriately segue into that type of experimentation.

I want both reasonable quantity and decent tasting fruit while keeping costs under control. My requirements for quantity and quality are not so stringent that I am after absolute optimization of yield and quality. For what I want, that would be excessive. The fruit I have gotten so far tastes great. Also, I don’t have a laboratory, just a backyard and a laptop.

My philosophy is always tempered with a cost benefit perspective and a “Reasonable Man” test. I am not the type of guy who thinks it makes sense to spend $400 for a bottle of Cabernet Sauvignon or use a Ferrari for basic transportation…just isn’t necessary or cost effective for what I consider to be marginal benefits. I will pay “up to” $15 occasionally on what I consider an acceptable bottle of Barbera and not a penny more. Even a formal cost accounting principle is to allow for a certain percentage of manufacturing spoilage, otherwise you are spending too much on the quality of materials and too much on labor for efficient economic practice. That’s the approach I am applying to container tomato growing.

RayR, thank you very much for the excellent link. Looking forward to reading new material. That’s a large part of the fun of this hobby.

[Worth1]

Mitch your last part about spending money.
When it comes to pruducts there are three kinds.
Garbage.
Good stuff for more money.
And stuff that cost a ton due to a name or something.
I refuse to pay more than ten dollars for a bottle of wine and more often around 7 or 8.
I will say there is no replacement for 50 to 100 year old balsamic vinegar.

But fertilizer.
I dont grow in containers but a raised bed is a big container.
for a long time I used 13-13-13 or 16-16-16 for fertilizer.
I put the beds in and the first year after two weeks the tomatoes didn't do anything.
I was gone during those two weeks and came home a little ticked off.
This was supposed to be good soil I bought and put in the beds.
I dont have a lot of time to be screwing around here.
The window for fruit set is small and that two weeks of not growing set me back big time.
I took a soil sample and tested for pH and found it to be around 8.
Okay that is like way too high.
So I decided to kill or cure my plants.
I went to the store and bought a big bag of Ironite and spread it all over the soil.
I then took a bottle of 5% acidity vinegar and a table spoon of MG put it in an Ortho dial and spray and set in on the highest setting.
The garden was soaked in this concoction until the dial and spray was empty.
I then watered the plant leaves to rinse of the vinegar and walked away.
Over night the plants exploded with growth.
I did an other soil test and the pH was below 6.5 and the so called fertility was on the high side.
All I used was a cheap soil tester but figured out how to use it correctly.
I reall dont care how accurate it is as long as it is in the ball park.

Well last year I tried something else.
I decided to go all organic.
In one bed I needed a ton more of the soil I had so I went and bought a few big blocks of peat moss and mixed it 50 50 with the soil I had left in a pile.
I put it in the bed and mixed in a bunch of plant tone I dont really know how much.
I planted my plants, peppers and so on and watered them with a liquid organic fertilizer called Lady Bug.
I did this a few times in the spring and stopped.
At the end of the year with not fertilizer added at all my few pepper plants I had were growing like mad and had tons of peppers on them.
I have never seen so many peppers lined up in a row on a plant in my life.
I am 57 years old and have been in the garden and agriculture of some sort since I was a wee kid at home.
This tells me that the organic fertilizer beats the 13-13-13 hands down.
The Liquid ladybug for the starting off boost and the slow release plant tone for the long haul.
I dont have numbers to give you or hard scientific facts just results.
The only thing I did do was monitor the pH during the growing season.
If it got to 7 I would hit it again with vinegar.
I chose not to use sulfur in the garden because I grow onions in it too.
I dont want hot onions.
Worth

[AKmark]

Taste? I have been reading these studies, one of them led me to this summary.
http://ucanr.org/sites/nm/files/76647.pdf

[Zenbaas]

Originally Posted by AKmark

Taste? I have been reading these studies, one of them led me to this summary.
http://ucanr.org/sites/nm/files/76647.pdf

Thanks for that interesting read. One thing I hadn't properly considered was sunlight. My balcony grown tomatoes definitely don't get enough sunlight which means they are less likely of producing the necessary sugars for sweeter tasting tomatoes.

[BajaMitch]

Worth, thanks for the great post. Tons of on point usable real info. Excellent info on the use of Ironite, 5% vinegar and your foliar treatment. I too use two cheap pH meters at the same time when testing...doesn't hurt to keep moving the meters around and trying different spots and different probe depths. Kind of vicariously exciting to learn that you got such good results so quickly.

I have a planter made out of wood that holds about 112 gallons of mix. I am going to try something very similar to your approach that you used on your bed to grow peppers next year. I tried growing peppers once and got absolutely no where. The bell peppers turned out as dry, thin walled miniatures and the jalapenos were small and thin with absolutely no heat. Complete bust.

Valuable to learn of your experience with the organic ferts compared to the 13-13-13 and 16-16-16. Thanks for that info.

While I am taking a detailed measurement of the nutrients I will be applying and while I have this theoretical approach I will be using, I realize that a very important part (probably the most important part) of the experimentation is visual assessment of actual results and respect for good results.

Nice article, AK. Interesting.

In the study that I am relying on for my determination of plant nutrient uptake, as I mentioned before, disclosed the total amount of each of the macronutrients supplied to the soil and the amount of that supply that was actually uptaken by the plant. I mathematically compared the total supplied nutrients to the nutrients uptaken by the plants, the difference between the two is what is left in the soil.

Since I derived the amount of each macronutrient uptaken by one plant, I divided that quantity into the total nutrient provided to the soil for each macronutrient and came up multiples. For example, for each gram of N uptaken by the plant, 2 grams were added to the soil initially, therefore the multiplier for N is 2. Similarly, P has a multiplier of 1.5, and K has a multiplier of 2, Ca has multiplier of 2.2, Mg is 3.1, and S is 3.6.

Keep in mind that the uptaken quantity of each macronutrient by the tomato plant is different. For example, my data shows that an individual tomato plant requires 33 grams of N over its life time, but you would add 66 grams to the soil, which reflects a multiplier of 2 (33*2=66). Similarly, P requires 19.5 grams for the plant uptake but you need to supply the soil 29.25 grams of P (19.5 x 1.5). Plant uptake of K is 49.3 grams, but you have to supply 98.6 grams to the soil (49.3 x 2).

This data was not gathered on plants in a container but in soil on the ground in a field. Not exactly a perfect comparison to container growing, but it is at least a starting point for me.

The article you cited confirms that varying concentrations of nutrients supplied yields different results and it also implies that various levels of excess supply of nutrients over what the plant uptakes doesn't necessarily always hurt the plant, but can, in certain circumstances, help the plant.

K is particularly important to tomatoes in that most of the K added to the soil is uptaken by the tomato fruit itself, much more than is left in the stalk. Uptake graphs show that the tomato plant uptakes large quantities of K during fruiting for that reason. Makes sense as to why the article mentioned adequate and sufficient supplies of K significantly affect yield. If memory serves, N is not needed as much during fruiting, but if over supplied to the plant will crowd out cation exchange of K during fruiting, inhibiting K uptake by the plant when it needs K the most. Excess N serves as an inhibitor to K and Mg. Not completely, sure yet, but a slight over supply of K and P isn't bad, but oversupply of N is. Under supply of N is bad too as it is really needed for photosynthesis, which, if memory serves, is principally responsible for manufacture of sugar in the plant and other critically important metabolic processes.

The article mentions lycopene in tomatoes. Good stuff, is a really good anti inflammatory; I take a lycopene capsule every day.

[AKmark]

Reading your last paragraph I think you are tracking, but look at your P it does not change that much, and I think it is many times used in excess.

[BajaMitch]

Phosphorus is often touted as the go to nutrient to prompt flowering and subsequent fruiting. I agree that it is probably over supplied because of this. Adequate P for the life of the plant added at planting time is probably sufficient for the plant. P doesn't migrate well, so it won't leach out as easily as, say, Nitrogen.

My data, I think, keeps me grounded when assessing the representations of others concerning fertilization quantities. For example, when I look at various well known tomato specific fertilizers, their proportions of the six macronutrients is all over the place compared to one another. Espoma has changed their Tomato-Tone mix at least once in the last few years. When you read posts by others and the ferts that they use, the proportions of the 6 macronutrients are also all over the place compared to one another. Even EB and ET use these huge amounts of Dolomite or CaCO3 which flies in the face of the acknowledged requirement of "balance" between K, Ca and Mg (not that I have ever come across a specific statement on how many grams of each constitutes "balance"). Speaking of balance, sometimes that term is used to describe a "balanced fertilizer", say NPK 6-6-6 or 15-15-15 without mentioning Ca. Mg, or S.

The vast array of recommended and differing fertilizations are so divergent that tomato plants may be more tolerant of a variety of nutrient excesses and deficiencies than I think, or, they are not. Not sure today, but I hope to be more certain of the facts in a year or two. I am at a point where I need to get my own first hand information with my own experimentation.

[AKmark]

I came across this in my favorites, it is another good source that backs up previous notes
http://www.greenhouse.cornell.edu/cr...ic-recipes.pdf

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by BajaMitch

The vast array of recommended and differing fertilizations are so divergent that tomato plants may be more tolerant of a variety of nutrient excesses and deficiencies than I think, or, they are not. Not sure today, but I hope to be more certain of the facts in a year or two. I am at a point where I need to get my own first hand information with my own experimentation.

That is so very true.

The other night I read like 5 pages on a forum where people argued what reflected light the best.
Mylar.
White paint.
A mirror.

[Gardeneer]

The experts will tell you how much of nutrients to apply per acre, ...1000sq-ft.... etc, not by the plant.
For example, my soil test recommends applying 2lbs of N per 1000 sq-ft. So how much do I have to add to 3x6 raised bed ? : The answer : 0.7 oz. Now I plan 5 tomatoes in that bed. How much each plant gets ? Answer ~~ 0.15 oz. JUST AN EXAMPLE.

The simplest thing is to get a goog soil test.

Then of course you can talk about on an academic level.

Gardeneer

[BajaMitch]

I have read similar reports and studies by experts and scientists wherein they disclose the fertilizer quantities per acre or hectare, but it is difficult to calculate how much of that fertilizer relates to one plant...one can only guess without knowing how many plants each author/scientist is planting per acre or hectare.

The .15 oz (AVDP oz presumably) is only 4.25 grams per plant...way too small a quantity for one plant alone, especially since not every atom of that N is going to be uptaken by the plant as there will always be some material amount of the N fertilizer left in the soil after plant uptake.

I found a study that gave the amount of fertilizer applied and then the amount of fertilizer in the resultant plant stalk and in the resultant fruit for the crop for two different cultivars, all in pounds. Very useful. I added together the uptake of the two cultivars and divided by two to arrive at an average for each macronutrient except sulfur (not disclosed by the study). Long story short, I determined that the average uptake of nitrogen by each tomato plant was 33 grams of elemental nitrogen.

Had to make some assumptions in the above calculation. How correct is my derivation of 33 gams of N? Unknown to me, but it is a starting point and I had some actual data to tie it to.

In next year's experiments, I am going to use varying quantities of my calculated amounts of per plant uptake for each of the 6 macronutrients, keep rigorous records of exact grams used. The empirical results of observed plant health and actual yield will help tell the true story.

Unless...unless someone out there who actually knows how much of each macronutrient is actually uptaken by a given plant cultivar (an average for each macronutrient would be very acceptable), well, that would be great if he or she would let us know with some citation of their information source. I think that person hasn't visited this forum yet. But, I know that they are out there, somewhere.

[Cole_Robbie]

There are hydro growers who mix their own nutrients on a large scale. They would be the ones who I think would have the closest answer to your question.

I still see it as having too many variables. My weather is different every year; that has to play a factor.

There are also a lot of fertilizer products that aren't exactly fertilizer. Kelp, humic, fulvic, and amino acids are the four organic acid supplements that can increase nutrient uptake. Good dark soil is rich in humates and humic acid. Your optimum numbers of NPK & micros are going to be different for a plant grown in soil like that, because the humates allow for larger uptake of nutrients. They may actually be smaller numbers, if uptake is more efficient.

Foliar feeding is another variable. It may be possible to fertilize more plants with less fertilizer if it is applied as a spray.