Saving Tomato Seeds Questions - Page 3

AlittleSalt · July 5, 2015

Carolyn, I have looked at the Tomato Growers catalog so many times that I knew Black Cherry is on page 26.

You have given me a lot to think about.

Worth1 · July 5, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlittleSalt

Carolyn, I have looked at the Tomato Growers catalog so many times that I knew Black Cherry is on page 26.

You have given me a lot to think about.

Salt did you get any Black Cherry seeds from me?
Worth

AlittleSalt · July 5, 2015

Yes, I did Worth. I am planning to try them this coming January. I'm thinking I will have much better results with the seeds you sent to us.

The BC seeds I had problems with were started last January and again on June first with the same results.

Gerardo · July 5, 2015

Thanks for the links Dr. Carolyn, I had a great time updating myself on viroids and geminiviridae in general, ideal for Sunday AM java.

The fact that they (geminis) swap around genes in-situ is very interesting, and does not bode well for us gardeners.

I remember it was fun trying to wrap my head around prions, now viroids, virusoids and satellites are equally intriguing. The fact that a naked, small, tightly coiled up piece of RNA that encodes no proteins can be such an effective mechanism at propagating "life" is really cool.

Back to the saving seeds, the motivation behind trying to reduce the counts is to make sure what I send off in trade is relatively clean.

Fermentation will have to suffice.

Gerardo · July 5, 2015

The BC seeds I had problems with were started last January and again on June first with the same results.[/QUOTE]

I got some Black Cherry in trade (Baker Creek original source) and I have also seen stunted growth in all of the 5 plants I grew out.

BlackBear · July 5, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLRedHeart

Yes, the temperature was probably determined by trial and error more than
anything else, just giving seeds thermal treatments to just before a serious
viability issue developed.

It may be overwhelmingly effective for most problems. But take for example,
Tomato Mosaic Virus. For that one the recommended treatment is for a longer
period of time @ 158 F under dry conditions. Different thermal situation.

Heat treatments done properly I've heard is not supposed to have a negative
effect on the growth of the plant. I'm sure there are studies on this, but I
never read any. In our situation, though, when we swap seeds or deal with
small outfits, frequently old seed shows up. I suspect there is a negative
effect on the eventual plant or yield, but again, these are impressions and
really would need to be proven by experiment. Plus as long as the variety
produces we then start over with our fresh home-grown seeds next time,
so I consider it the cost of getting a new free variety.

TMV ?????? treatment attempt at 158f/ 70C for longer than ?????

this was sort of the answer to my question and musing .........

So ...if one has an inexpensive thermos and a good thermometer one could set the

regular hot water bath compensation a few degrees above the recommended 122f/50C @ 25 minutes and the temp would slowly fall a degree or 2 in that time (still with in recommended min . Temp)........seems like I do not need a $1500.00 piece of lab equipment to have a successful small time Hot water bath treatment .

To continue this direction..
I can imagine a world where on occasion one can not find a certain variety of Tomato seeds ...

One scours the internet ......searches all the Best reputation seed houses and source

and is not able to obtain seeds.

at some point if one is adamant about obtaining the variety .......they may have to either

obtain the rare/hard to find from Swaps or other untried even dubious sources .

If one then can get the "non pedigree" source to grow successful fruit of the rare /hard to find for seed.......

I would say there is a better than even chance there is disease seen and unseen in these

rare sourced seeds .......

so... I can imagine a world that on first successful production of "in house " seeds/fruit one could upgrade the seeds by lessening the "disease load" by Hot water treatment for next generation.

But again this is a big hassle for home Tomato hobbyist gardeners and is about upgrading / saving / reclaiming your rare "in house" seed source so they have a better start with less disease load.

Again I Totally agree with Carolyn .....if you can get the new seeds from a good trusted source/ seed house in the first place then do yourself a favour and do that.

FLRedHeart · July 5, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackBear

TMV ?????? treatment attempt at 158f/ 70C for longer than ?????

this was sort of the answer to my question and musing .........

....

But again this is a big hassle for home Tomato hobbyist gardeners and is about upgrading / saving / reclaiming your rare "in house" seed source so they have a better start with less disease load.

Again I Totally agree with Carolyn .....if you can get the new seeds from a good trusted source/ seed house in the first place then do yourself a favour and do that.

Yes, I believe it is 24 hours. However dry seed under dry heat is a different ball-o-wax.

Tomato Mosaic is ToMV, not TMV

As I've said, I heat treat my seeds almost without exception. It is my personal 'phytosanitary' standard. I am not recommending pro or con, just discussing heat treatment as a subject.

My only opinion on what is recommended for other gardeners is ... I would not lump other gardeners all in the same group and say what's good for one is good for all.

BlackBear · July 5, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLRedHeart

Yes, I believe it is 24 hours. However dry seed under dry heat is a different ball-o-wax.

Tomato Mosaic is ToMV, not TMV

As I've said, I heat treat my seeds almost without exception. It is my personal 'phytosanitary' standard. I am not recommending pro or con, just discussing heat treatment as a subject.

My only opinion on what is recommended for other gardeners is ... I would not lump other gardeners all in the same group and say what's good for one is good for all.

oh my mistake ..I was thinking hot water bath treatment .....

Where do you get the parameters / techniques/ tables for dry heat method ?...

this is indeed a different ball of wax !

As many sources of seed can travel quite a long geographical way, they may have diseases that are not " the usual " for the new grow area.

Some how even ToMV could be hidden in seeds to an unsuspecting grower???

ContainerTed · July 5, 2015

I've always made it a personal policy to isolate seeds that I receive in swaps/trades/whatever and plant them in a place that would physically isolate them from my main garden. It's not that I think everyone is sending out their worst. It's that I know that all folks who trade or swap are not experts on the pathogens that they may or may not have. I am always thankful that they share with me and accept that it is my responsibility to take precautions against the worst case scenario. So, most of the time, I try out new varieties in containers up next to the house. I can be more watchful of their growth and progress. I can also provide the best setup for them (growing medium, ferts, etc.).

If I were in a commercial operation, I might think about these additional processes to maximize my available stock with primary consideration to my business's public image. And, if not for discussions like this one, I need to know all my options - both easy and complicated. But, I also am a person who is always thirsty for knowledge. So, this thread is great. But, in my present configuration as an amateur grower, I can't see going to this extreme.

Salty, if you think the variety is true, then go ahead and save seeds and regrow. You might find, as I have found before, that it is just a matter of giving it a good environment to produce for you. Just keep it isolated as best as you can to be ultra safe with the rest of your plants.

JMHO!!

FLRedHeart · July 6, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackBear

oh my mistake ..I was thinking hot water bath treatment .....

Where do you get the parameters / techniques/ tables for dry heat method ?...

this is indeed a different ball of wax !

As many sources of seed can travel quite a long geographical way, they may have diseases that are not " the usual " for the new grow area.

Some how even ToMV could be hidden in seeds to an unsuspecting grower???

I get exotic seeds from the greatest people near and far and it is added
insurance that I buy with a small additional effort.

Depending on how risks evolve you work that out whatever combinations of
treatments are acceptable to the certifying body, such as in the case of a
modest operation producing foundation seed.

There was a process control manual of sorts in that place I was at that did this,
however it was company property, and seriously very dull reading and there
was too much else to do ... and mostly was concerned with chemicals and
audits

I don't know if there is one pdf compilation of methods somewhere, since these
things are not set in stone due to the funky nature of seed viability vs.
sterilization of pathogens being can of worms in an industry that is another can
of worms. Maybe someone else is up to a literature search or mining expedition

Maybe you can call these guys and if they are nice they can refer you to a
publication of what's going on in Canada, but it is more likely you'll just meet
with a wheelbarrow full of red tape and running around:
http://cdnseed.org/
You could invest in a call and have your specific question written down in a way
they could refer you to a name and number of a public servant who knows
something. I wonder if whoever's overseeing organic has a tomato seed heat
standard and supporting info behind it.

Otherwise just browse the literature if you are curious and want to expand you
knowledge base, mostly just to get a greater feel for what regarding the trials
and errors that are made as the treatment is made more intense, and the
infection levels are supposedly found to go to zero, by picking a random
pathogen. Wish I had a link to give for an overview, sorry this is the best I can do.
Cheers

BlackBear · July 6, 2015

oh possibly this dry heat process info. is interesting Industry "guild" trade secrets ???

or proprietary close hand knowledge ???

I will look a little for the dry heat subject ......

But in the meantime the Cornell info. on Hot water bath tables is good for me.

FLRedHeart · July 6, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackBear

oh possibly this dry heat process info. is interesting Industry "guild" trade secrets ???

or proprietary close hand knowledge ???

I will look a little for the dry heat subject ......

But in the meantime the Cornell info. on Hot water bath tables is good for me.

For sure, if you want to experiment with heat treatment it's nice that that Ohio
stuff was written up for hobbyists.

Businesses don't train others on their hard-earned know-how, why would they?
Heck I've met cut-throats hobbyists online that are worse than the seed companies
LOL, so I wouldn't single out quality companies producing certified & clean seed,
since at least you can get a paycheck out of them. Plus breeders can be a
strange lot so it kind of influences the company's character.

One good independent breeder is Fred Hempel who posts here. He got it right
using the chemical TSP if you can buy some, it is something else to look into
which will give you a practical method. I don't recall what he uses but I think it
is the literature recommended 10%. I use ~5% for a half hour and occasionally
lose track of time with no problems resulting. And that is in addition to heat
treatment.

The other information has got to be out there, and the only question is whether
it is served up on a silver platter or not. The dry heat is good reading but you
probably won't do it unless you are a mad scientist, though it would be fun to
try. It also does TMV, the other related virus you mentioned.

Cheers

BlackBear · July 6, 2015

well....maybe not quite "Mad scientist " ......but " Mad hobbyist " for sure! all of this discussion does let one think about other possible options for further study .....
like Socrates ....we are just asking questions ...ha ha ha
The ideas of other ways to do things are good to know.

As a hobbyist I do not really care to try and make people upset with disclosing trade secrets etc.
Perhaps these secrets should be written down in masonic script for safe keeping ...ha ha ha

AlittleSalt · July 7, 2015

I starting fermenting three varieties of OP Tomato seeds yesterday. One was Amish Gold. The method of fermenting is in a clear glass jar with nothing over the top. I put somewhere around 300 seeds and some tomato pulp in the jar along with 16 oz. tap water. Today, nearly all the seeds are floating. I swirled the jar and most of the seeds are still floating. I would guesstimate 10% are on the bottom of the jar and the other 90% are floating.

I should add that the tomatoes were never inside our air conditioned house. The seeds were extracted the same day they were picked fully ripe. The fermenting jar is sitting on a stainless steel table under full dappled shade (Never full sun) it is right beside an oak tree. The temperatures have been in the low 90s for daytime highs and mid 70s for lows. The last time I looked at these seeds fermenting was at 24 hours after putting the seeds in the jar.

Do you think this is just a batch of bad seeds, or do they still have a chance to sink?

Starlight · July 7, 2015

Salt ... Are the seeds still floating all attached to the pulp? If so you might take a spoon and gently squish the seeds loose from the pulp mat and see then if you don't have more sink to the bottom.

July 5, 2015	#34
Gerardo Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: San Diego-Tijuana Posts: 2,598	Thanks for the links Dr. Carolyn, I had a great time updating myself on viroids and geminiviridae in general, ideal for Sunday AM java. The fact that they (geminis) swap around genes in-situ is very interesting, and does not bode well for us gardeners. I remember it was fun trying to wrap my head around prions, now viroids, virusoids and satellites are equally intriguing. The fact that a naked, small, tightly coiled up piece of RNA that encodes no proteins can be such an effective mechanism at propagating "life" is really cool. Back to the saving seeds, the motivation behind trying to reduce the counts is to make sure what I send off in trade is relatively clean. Fermentation will have to suffice. Last edited by Gerardo; July 5, 2015 at 01:28 PM.

July 5, 2015	#39
ContainerTed Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: 6a - NE Tennessee Posts: 4,538	I've always made it a personal policy to isolate seeds that I receive in swaps/trades/whatever and plant them in a place that would physically isolate them from my main garden. It's not that I think everyone is sending out their worst. It's that I know that all folks who trade or swap are not experts on the pathogens that they may or may not have. I am always thankful that they share with me and accept that it is my responsibility to take precautions against the worst case scenario. So, most of the time, I try out new varieties in containers up next to the house. I can be more watchful of their growth and progress. I can also provide the best setup for them (growing medium, ferts, etc.). If I were in a commercial operation, I might think about these additional processes to maximize my available stock with primary consideration to my business's public image. And, if not for discussions like this one, I need to know all my options - both easy and complicated. But, I also am a person who is always thirsty for knowledge. So, this thread is great. But, in my present configuration as an amateur grower, I can't see going to this extreme. Salty, if you think the variety is true, then go ahead and save seeds and regrow. You might find, as I have found before, that it is just a matter of giving it a good environment to produce for you. Just keep it isolated as best as you can to be ultra safe with the rest of your plants. JMHO!! __________________ Ted ________________________ Owner & Sole Operator Of The Muddy Bucket Farm and Tomato Ranch

July 6, 2015	#41
BlackBear Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2015 Location: Nanaimo , BC Posts: 961	oh possibly this dry heat process info. is interesting Industry "guild" trade secrets ??? or proprietary close hand knowledge ??? I will look a little for the dry heat subject ...... But in the meantime the Cornell info. on Hot water bath tables is good for me. __________________ So Many Tomatoes ...So Little Time !

July 6, 2015	#43
BlackBear Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2015 Location: Nanaimo , BC Posts: 961	well....maybe not quite "Mad scientist " ......but " Mad hobbyist " for sure! all of this discussion does let one think about other possible options for further study ..... like Socrates ....we are just asking questions ...ha ha ha The ideas of other ways to do things are good to know. As a hobbyist I do not really care to try and make people upset with disclosing trade secrets etc. Perhaps these secrets should be written down in masonic script for safe keeping ...ha ha ha __________________ So Many Tomatoes ...So Little Time !

July 5, 2015	#31
AlittleSalt BANNED FOR LIFE Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 13,333	Carolyn, I have looked at the Tomato Growers catalog so many times that I knew Black Cherry is on page 26. You have given me a lot to think about.

July 7, 2015	#44
AlittleSalt BANNED FOR LIFE Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 13,333	I starting fermenting three varieties of OP Tomato seeds yesterday. One was Amish Gold. The method of fermenting is in a clear glass jar with nothing over the top. I put somewhere around 300 seeds and some tomato pulp in the jar along with 16 oz. tap water. Today, nearly all the seeds are floating. I swirled the jar and most of the seeds are still floating. I would guesstimate 10% are on the bottom of the jar and the other 90% are floating. I should add that the tomatoes were never inside our air conditioned house. The seeds were extracted the same day they were picked fully ripe. The fermenting jar is sitting on a stainless steel table under full dappled shade (Never full sun) it is right beside an oak tree. The temperatures have been in the low 90s for daytime highs and mid 70s for lows. The last time I looked at these seeds fermenting was at 24 hours after putting the seeds in the jar. Do you think this is just a batch of bad seeds, or do they still have a chance to sink?

July 7, 2015	#45
Starlight Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: AL Posts: 1,993	Salt ... Are the seeds still floating all attached to the pulp? If so you might take a spoon and gently squish the seeds loose from the pulp mat and see then if you don't have more sink to the bottom.