Need a list of all positive microrganisms in the soil

[mensplace]

This may sound crazy to some, but I want to "kick it up a notch"! Anyone out there aware of a science or soil fod web site that lists by category and subtype all of the positive micro-organisms that dwell in the soil and on our plants and fruit below and above the soil. I want to do some serious experimentation. Realizing there are millions of microorganisms, I essentially want to discover what they are, what they do, their names (in the latin, scientific nomenclature) and how they function. These would be those that contribute by developing the soil, food exchange, fight negative life forms, etc.. and, thereby, assist us and the soils in our efforts. Any ideas where to start or a website link?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by mensplace

This may sound crazy to some, but I want to "kick it up a notch"! Anyone out there aware of a science or soil fod web site that lists by category and subtype all of the positive micro-organisms that dwell in the soil and on our plants and fruit below and above the soil. I want to do some serious experimentation. Realizing there are millions of microorganisms, I essentially want to discover what they are, what they do, their names (in the latin, scientific nomenclature) and how they function. These would be those that contribute by developing the soil, food exchange, fight negative life forms, etc.. and, thereby, assist us and the soils in our efforts. Any ideas where to start or a website link?

Sorry, no such information.

Why?

Because the majority of at least soil bacteria have never been able to be grown in the lab in order to ID them.

If you take a soil sample and plate out a known amount for culture and you use the same amount for direct staining the amount in the latter is much greater than the former.

Soil Microbiologists have tried all kinds of media and incubation conditions in order to exapand our knowledge about the bacteria in the soil.

And when you say micro organisms you're also including not just bacteria, but fungi, viruses and critters such as nematodes, etc, and the knowledge about all of those is sparse indeed. We know the common ones, but at least with bacteria, it's estimated from direct counts that we don't know about 80% of the soil bacteria alone and no such info on the other classes of soil micro-organisms.

most of the research on soil Microbiology is done in colleges and universities and there are other priorities that can grab grant money quicker. That's not to say that some work isn't being done, it is, but not much these days with tight grant monies.

It's the old story in academia of publish or perish when it comes to promotion and tenure and when a person has to work with organisms that have half lives of weeks to months it's very slow going.

I taught Soil Microbiology for a number of years.

I can't point you to any one website but if you do a Google search you'll probably come up with the better known soil dwellers.

[mensplace]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Sorry, no such information.

Why?

Because the majority of at least soil bacteria have never been able to be grown in the lab in order to ID them.

If you take a soil sample and plate out a known amount for culture and you use the same amount for direct staining the amount in the latter is much greater than the former.

Soil Microbiologists have tried all kinds of media and incubation conditions in order to exapand our knowledge about the bacteria in the soil.

And when you say micro organisms you're also including not just bacteria, but fungi, viruses and critters such as nematodes, etc, and the knowledge about all of those is sparse indeed. We know the common ones, but at least with bacteria, it's estimated from direct counts that we don't know about 80% of the soil bacteria alone and no such info on the other classes of soil micro-organisms.

most of the research on soil Microbiology is done in colleges and universities and there are other priorities that can grab grant money quicker. That's not to say that some work isn't being done, it is, but not much these days with tight grant monies.

It's the old story in academia of publish or perish when it comes to promotion and tenure and when a person has to work with organisms that have half lives of weeks to months it's very slow going.

I taught Soil Microbiology for a number of years.

I can't point you to any one website but if you do a Google search you'll probably come up with the better known soil dwellers.

VERY interesting.
You see, I have been reading so many of the descriptions from those who sell the various (and they are virtually countless) little packages of powder or bottles of liquid innoculants, each designed to combat a few diseases, a few pests, or add a few beneficial microorganisms, that I eventually began to wonder just how many beneficial versus negative microrganisms there must be in the perpetual batlle below the earth and on our plants. I have already sprayed a few and have others coming. They all indicate that they serve different purposes by attacking the negative or destructive life forms OR in and of themselves, providing positive functions in the soil food web. Each little package runs between 15 and 30 dollars. That was why I was hopeful of looking at the various beneficial, defensive, or positive affects of these families of microorganisms. Here I'm not even talking the dust derivatives that come out of cow horns to reorder the gardens chi, but those that on the surface seem to serve a scientifically sound purpose. BUT, as you indicate, the innulants are virtually countless and expensive as the negative organisms are destructive and varied. I have never seen ONE generic blend that addresses most of those common needs of the gardener, i.e., those needs and defences most experience. Before long, the garden produce would cease to even be affordable if one tried to protect or enhance with the whole realm of organisms. My effort at a sanity check was to learn some small portion of what you spent years studying to at least understand the role of each family and the major subspecies. Point being, having done everything I can to enhance the soil, what could I do to enhance and grow the life in the soil while proactively attacking the predators. What is scientifically valid and what is sheer fluff? Is this whole endeavor a fruitless waste of time or does microbiological enhancement serve a viable role in soil development, disease and insect defence? Too, COULD one even develop their own generic, broad ranging blend though the various micrbiological species repositories..as many a company apparently does?

[habitat_gardener]

A good overview is the book Teaming with Microbes. It's written for gardeners and may be a good way to get a handle on what you need to know from a noncommercial source.

My approach is to make and use lots and lots of compost. Occasionally I make comfrey tea or similar potions.

[amideutch]

mp, here's a book I purchased because I had the same questions as you and wanted to know exactly what these microbes listed on the packages do and by what means. It doesn't have them all but is a very good primer with lots of information. Here's a link to amazon and the book and you can even preview it. Softcover is $75.00 and most of the others in this field are in the $100 to $300 range. Ami

http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Micro...0081690&sr=1-1

[carolyn137]

mp, I've been reading your thread at GW where you asked what
"magic" ingredients folks add to the soil and several suggestions have been made and most of them center on improving the soil as best you can.

Here at Tville you've been concentrating on diseases which is a separate but related issue.

It might be worth while for you to make a list of the diseases you know you have problems with, concentrating on those whose pathogens can be found in the soil, since soil seems to be your major concern. So that means IDing what are called the systemic diseases that you've had problems with or are known to be in your area.

Your local Cooperative extension might be of help in that regard. Once you know the specific pathogens that can be a problem in your own area, then I think you can more easily assess the various packaged amendments, whether biological or not, that might help if that's the route you wish to follow.

The foliage bad guys are a problem for almost everyone and the approach to prevention/control of those is usually different than the approach to the soil bad guys.

Using a website that lists and talks about tomato diseases is helpful up to a point but diseases are regionalized so that's why I'm suggesting you contact you own local cooperative extension.

Just to give one example.

Root Shield is said to control Fusarium but when it first became available, which was back in about 2000 or so there was sprited debate about it at another place where I used to post. Someone there contacted the place where they were making it and a woman scientist wrote back and said that they never tested it against Fusaium and its major use is to help prevent damping off, which can be caused by three fungal pathogens, that have nothing to do with Fusarium.

And if you Google Root Shield you'll find that it's used primarily in the commercial flower bedding industry to help control damping off of bedding plants. Yet there are still places selling it for use re Fusarium,.

And there are other biologicals that can be used, some shared with you at your thread at GW. And the effectiveness can be variable from person to person and place to place in terms of your tomatoes.

So in terms of your concern about the soil in general, add compost and all the other materials that several folks have suggested to you.

In terms of tomato diseases, I think it's best to ID the enemy first so you know what you're dealing with as to specific diseases and then go from there in terms of assessing what might or might not work as an addition to your soil as a biological amendment that might help.

[mensplace]

Some excellent suggestions Carolyn. I wonder if these innoculants can be like antibiotics in that taking them when the slightest illness strikes or for too long can, over time, allow the various bacterias for which they are intended to develop a resistance over time. Or might adding the beneficial microorganism even lead to them conflicting with one another. Trouble is, I'm not sure what organisms are problematic or even present and was using something of a broad spectrum approach, maybe as a means of creating an environment in the whole garden and among my fruit trees whereby I was shielding them against many a future problem...known and unknown. Could it be that adding many different innoculants on the foliage, the fruits, and in the soil would actually result in infighting and killing of the conflicting beneficial organisms? In my lack of real knowledge, in-depth knowledge, I was thinking in terns of fighting not only diseases, but also insects while still in the larval phase, as well as adding those that work to enhance the various functions that these play in providing an environment conducive to life in the soil food web that support food use, growth, soil enhancement, etc.. With the various innoculants each addressing different functions, it seemed logical that the only approach in lieu of a broad spectrum blend was to add several to use the benefits of each. This quickly became costly as there are so many, each suggesting effectiveness against different species and subspecies, while most had the studies, reports, news articles, and images of the startling before and after results. But, you are right, I don't really KNOW. THAT was when I asked for some good books, that have now kindly been recommened. But, as you suggested, it seems the key is to know what pests or problems exist first. I do know that this soil is heavy Georgia clay with poor drainage, that according to some research grew cotton from the time of the indians until the mid 1970's. All of my deep tilling and adding N,P,K and humus has still left me a garden that produces less than ever before in any other place after five years of work. Now, with my disease rapidly turning my spine and hips to fused bone all the way down, I am converting this year to organic methods, will be seeking a helper to till compost in the top twelve inches, and will be adding a heavy compost manure and stray layer on the top to convert to raised beds and even hay bale hotbeds and cold frames. All of my gardening is now done while sitting either on the ground or on the haybales with hand tools so I now HAVE to have loose, friable soil. In achieving that, I was trying to do everything possible to enhance and support healthy growth as conventional rows, tilling, and above ground spraying is no longer an option.

[carolyn137]

But, as you suggested, it seems the key is to know what pests or problems exist first. I do know that this soil is heavy Georgia clay

****

And you went on to discuss the problems with your soil, but said nothing at all about the disease pest problem.

And until you KNOW which diseases and KNOW which pests have been, are, or might be problematic in your area I can't see you making any conclusions about any biological products to be used.

I don't know what you have been using, but you say you're now switching to organic growing but it isn't clear in my mind how that's related directly to the disease/pest problem you say you have. As it relates to soil improvement I do understand.

There are so many products out there now, such as Messenger, and Spinosad and Actinovate and Root Shield and different mycorrizals, etc., and I know folks have used some of them, and the feedback says yes, they help for some, but not for others.

So I think it would be good if you knew what the disease/pest problems are and then maybe even do some controls. And I suggest that b'c so many times someone will say this or that works well, and I'll ask what the comparisons were with the same variety in the same season that didn't receive the added whatever, and the person didn't do controls, in which case no conclusions can be made as I see it. And some of those products can be very expensive indeed.

[amideutch]

mp, with your present medical condition I would give up what you describe as a loosing battle and start growing in containers whether they be open as I use at home or SWC's like EarthTainers or Earthboxes. You have a lot more control over what you are growing your plants in aggregate wise, less soil borne disease problems and better control over the nutrient uptake of the plant.
Controls are fine when doing tests as Ray has done and is doing with his EarthTainers that lend themselves beautifully for doing these tasks. When it comes to disease I prefer the shotgun approach like Actinovate that is effective against several diseases. First year I grew in containers plant disease was rampant on most of my plants. Next year Actinovate was used with minimal disease problems. Then I added to my regimen using Azoxystrobin as a foliar for disease control and this year I supplemented using Agri-Fos which is also systemic so it gets inside the plant to help fight disease.
I do have a raised bed I made at my work place as our whole sited sits on sand stone and we only have 6" of topsoil to work with. Each year I add amendments which are all organic and have a pretty good area to grow 7-8 tomato plants. Have you thought about going the raised bed approach rather than fight a loosing battle as you have described. You might want to check out the Mittleider "Grow Box" method.
As we get older and our bodies ain't what the used to be time becomes a precious commodity. If I find a product that works from the git go I'm going to use it and don't care about controls. The time and effort I put into this hobby is too precious to waste especially when I get only one shot a year. Ami

[mensplace]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

mp, I've been reading your thread at GW where you asked what
"magic" ingredients folks add to the soil and several suggestions have been made and most of them center on improving the soil as best you can.

Here at Tville you've been concentrating on diseases which is a separate but related issue.

It might be worth while for you to make a list of the diseases you know you have problems with, concentrating on those whose pathogens can be found in the soil, since soil seems to be your major concern. So that means IDing what are called the systemic diseases that you've had problems with or are known to be in your area.

Your local Cooperative extension might be of help in that regard. Once you know the specific pathogens that can be a problem in your own area, then I think you can more easily assess the various packaged amendments, whether biological or not, that might help if that's the route you wish to follow.

The foliage bad guys are a problem for almost everyone and the approach to prevention/control of those is usually different than the approach to the soil bad guys.

Using a website that lists and talks about tomato diseases is helpful up to a point but diseases are regionalized so that's why I'm suggesting you contact you own local cooperative extension.

Just to give one example.

Root Shield is said to control Fusarium but when it first became available, which was back in about 2000 or so there was sprited debate about it at another place where I used to post. Someone there contacted the place where they were making it and a woman scientist wrote back and said that they never tested it against Fusaium and its major use is to help prevent damping off, which can be caused by three fungal pathogens, that have nothing to do with Fusarium.

And if you Google Root Shield you'll find that it's used primarily in the commercial flower bedding industry to help control damping off of bedding plants. Yet there are still places selling it for use re Fusarium,.

And there are other biologicals that can be used, some shared with you at your thread at GW. And the effectiveness can be variable from person to person and place to place in terms of your tomatoes.

So in terms of your concern about the soil in general, add compost and all the other materials that several folks have suggested to you.

In terms of tomato diseases, I think it's best to ID the enemy first so you know what you're dealing with as to specific diseases and then go from there in terms of assessing what might or might not work as an addition to your soil as a biological amendment that might help.

Carolyn, Per your good advice, I have written to our county extension agent to determine what testing is available though the extension service and U.GA . A very wise suggestion, though any testing I have seen through the extension service in the past is mostly related to NPK and PH.
After seeing what they have access to, I will then research to see if I can find any affordable private testing services, or anything through the USDA. Thank you

[mensplace]

Originally Posted by amideutch

mp, with your present medical condition I would give up what you describe as a loosing battle and start growing in containers whether they be open as I use at home or SWC's like EarthTainers or Earthboxes. You have a lot more control over what you are growing your plants in aggregate wise, less soil borne disease problems and better control over the nutrient uptake of the plant.
Controls are fine when doing tests as Ray has done and is doing with his EarthTainers that lend themselves beautifully for doing these tasks. When it comes to disease I prefer the shotgun approach like Actinovate that is effective against several diseases. First year I grew in containers plant disease was rampant on most of my plants. Next year Actinovate was used with minimal disease problems. Then I added to my regimen using Azoxystrobin as a foliar for disease control and this year I supplemented using Agri-Fos which is also systemic so it gets inside the plant to help fight disease.
I do have a raised bed I made at my work place as our whole sited sits on sand stone and we only have 6" of topsoil to work with. Each year I add amendments which are all organic and have a pretty good area to grow 7-8 tomato plants. Have you thought about going the raised bed approach rather than fight a loosing battle as you have described. You might want to check out the Mittleider "Grow Box" method.
As we get older and our bodies ain't what the used to be time becomes a precious commodity. If I find a product that works from the git go I'm going to use it and don't care about controls. The time and effort I put into this hobby is too precious to waste especially when I get only one shot a year. Ami

Ami, Gardening has always been a great love of mine, but now it is equally a source of forcing myself to get out into the sun and do some bending...something I was paying 85.00 for three days a week. I will NOT surrender.. even though taking major painkillers that I cannot list here. It hurts, but gives me also a reason for being and something to look forward to. I do what I can, then hurt, then take the pain meds. Too, as an author of four books, I will have months yet this winter to do my sixth AND get back to work publishing my fifth. After my two strokes a couple months ago, the diagnosis of a rapidly progressing disease that will fuse my hips and spine ALMOST led me to give up. I then recalled all that I had witnessed that led to my first four books. Bottom line, I forced myself outside where I made extended squares of hay bales, tied these with a perimeter of rope, and slowly filled them to a good planting level. That, I found, meant that I could sit on the bales and use short tools to do my work. Then, motivated anew, I sat on the ground and layed out garlics, potatoes, onions, chives, shallots and covered those with hay, manure and compost. I unloaded my truck with a rake by sitting on the tailgate...one reach at a time and then cane in one hand and bucket in the other, carried each bucket to sprinkle. That was all phase one as the beds are now hay bale hotbeds are now covered for winter. My plan was to hire someone to till down to a foot and then add plenty of compost to be tilled into the soil. Then, I would like to add another foot of good compost on the top. That was to be December's endeavor. That done, I wanted to shape the beds into a raised bed four feet across leaving drainage in between. This would approximate a square foot/intensive approach so that I could still sit on the sides of the rows and work in the french intensive/square foot manner but with longer rows with flat tops. Here, many cover those rows with black plastic to kill the nematoides, but it would also bake the worms and other life forms, so I will probably put amendments and hay on the tops to allow the rain and weather to work over the winter until April. I have tried container gardening here, but had a horrible time with temps in the 100's in the summer. I also had a customer withe the wrolds largest hydroponic installation that lost HUGELY due to issues with the fungi and diseases in the water. My simple desire is this, to make the soil I grow in loose, friable, rich, and full of life and from that to grow a sizable portion of the food for the two of us. Like many, I lost about 40% of my long term savings when the economic woes hit home. But again, LIFE can be very, very good and so I start over...at 60.

[amideutch]

mp, I applaud your efforts and determination under such trying conditions. I too have problems with my back and have been told the only fix is the knife which I refuse to do at this time. I found that working in the yard and exercise seems to be the best medicine. Funny thing living here in Germany is you see the elderly 70+ years old still out in there yards working on and growing in their gardens year after year and they are the ones that live to a ripe old age while the others that stay in their homes and vegetate have the shorter lifespan.
Good call on the black mulch. Warms the soil yes but also causes the bad guys in the soil to proliferate. I've read where they are using Neems as a control for nematodes. If I find the link I will post it. Ami

[carolyn137]

Carolyn, Per your good advice, I have written to our county extension agent to determine what testing is available though the extension service and U.GA . A very wise suggestion, though any testing I have seen through the extension service in the past is mostly related to NPK and PH.
After seeing what they have access to, I will then research to see if I can find any affordable private testing services, or anything through the USDA. Thank you

*****

mp, I'm not talking about testing for specific diseases on your own plants, rather, I'm suggesting that if you don't know what tomato diseases you have had or expect to have in your area that you call your local Cooperative Extension for that information. And that information should help you with regard to what biologicals you might want to use as has been discussed here in this thread.

Getting your soil tested is one thing that many do to see if amendments are needed, and no doubt that's available to you through your Coop Extension and I've seen reports that folks have posted that include much more than just NPK and pH, so you'll just have to ask about that.

No, the USDA does not do private testing for the public. if your local Coop Ext can't help with soil testing they should be able to refer you elsewhere, possibily the U of GA.

I too applaud your determination to continue gardening, as did Ami. Being confined to a walker these days I have to rely on two good friends for help. Martha(gardenmama) is in VA and raises my plants for me after I send her the seeds and then ships up those plants to me and another good friend, actually bcday, a Moderator here, does almost all of my seed saving for me elsewhere in NYS although with help I can set up and do set up some fermentations for seed processing.

And Freda, who cleans for me and does the lawn, does ALL the gardening here whether it be tomatoes, which are grown in 12 gal Gro-bags, maximum 30 plants, or the large containers that hold the other vegetables and fruits, as well as all the perennial beds and more. Freda always brings in fresh bouquets during the summer, which I love. The last gardening she did was sowing some special daylily seeds outside last Friday, those seeds sent to me by someone here at Tville that he had bought at a daylily seed auction.

it's been quite a step down from my growing hundreds of plants each year and same for varieties grown, so that's why I now concentrate on growing varieties new to all or most.

[mensplace]

Originally Posted by amideutch

mp, I applaud your efforts and determination under such trying conditions. I too have problems with my back and have been told the only fix is the knife which I refuse to do at this time. I found that working in the yard and exercise seems to be the best medicine. Funny thing living here in Germany is you see the elderly 70+ years old still out in there yards working on and growing in their gardens year after year and they are the ones that live to a ripe old age while the others that stay in their homes and vegetate have the shorter lifespan.
Good call on the black mulch. Warms the soil yes but also causes the bad guys in the soil to proliferate. I've read where they are using Neems as a control for nematodes. If I find the link I will post it. Ami

As a part of my soil prep, I have included liberal doses of chiten (ground up shells of crabs), have neem oil for later us, and have planted mustard greens in among my cover crops. The roots of the mustard as well as the tops being worked into the soil are supposed to help. Other than that, there is a biological immunant for the soil and there are other beneficial nematodes that attack and kill the bad ones. Have not gone that far yet, but know from the knots on the roots of the tomatoes that they do exist here as they do in most of the south after a millenia of cotton growing. That is why in most of the south, where cotton and tobacco was grown they used to fumigate with gas and now use the black plastic to literally bake the soil.

[mensplace]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Carolyn, Per your good advice, I have written to our county extension agent to determine what testing is available though the extension service and U.GA . A very wise suggestion, though any testing I have seen through the extension service in the past is mostly related to NPK and PH.
After seeing what they have access to, I will then research to see if I can find any affordable private testing services, or anything through the USDA. Thank you

*****

mp, I'm not talking about testing for specific diseases on your own plants, rather, I'm suggesting that if you don't know what tomato diseases you have had or expect to have in your area that you call your local Cooperative Extension for that information. And that information should help you with regard to what biologicals you might want to use as has been discussed here in this thread.

Getting your soil tested is one thing that many do to see if amendments are needed, and no doubt that's available to you through your Coop Extension and I've seen reports that folks have posted that include much more than just NPK and pH, so you'll just have to ask about that.

No, the USDA does not do private testing for the public. if your local Coop Ext can't help with soil testing they should be able to refer you elsewhere, possibily the U of GA.

I too applaud your determination to continue gardening, as did Ami. Being confined to a walker these days I have to rely on two good friends for help. Martha(gardenmama) is in VA and raises my plants for me after I send her the seeds and then ships up those plants to me and another good friend, actually bcday, a Moderator here, does almost all of my seed saving for me elsewhere in NYS although with help I can set up and do set up some fermentations for seed processing.

And Freda, who cleans for me and does the lawn, does ALL the gardening here whether it be tomatoes, which are grown in 12 gal Gro-bags, maximum 30 plants, or the large containers that hold the other vegetables and fruits, as well as all the perennial beds and more. Freda always brings in fresh bouquets during the summer, which I love. The last gardening she did was sowing some special daylily seeds outside last Friday, those seeds sent to me by someone here at Tville that he had bought at a daylily seed auction.

it's been quite a step down from my growing hundreds of plants each year and same for varieties grown, so that's why I now concentrate on growing varieties new to all or most.

My main computer is down today, so it may be a while before I get my normal email functioning again. I will be following up with the ag agent today by phone. Thanks for the sharing re the walking. I was a hospital emergency room chaplain in the ER and ICU after my IBM career, so am VERY aware that many face far more every day. For myself, it is not so much the immobility as the constant, daily pain that requires such powerful meds that really is a hassle. However, the only answer for myself is to keep on living and not merely existing....that and learning to get and accept help when I need it. This STUPID CPAP machine is one of the greater challenges! Funny thing is that my books were based upon my own helping others in times of starting over and now I'm having to re-learn much of what I wrote about.