TSP method of saving

[Chucker]

I've been trying to find the method for saving tomato seeds with TSP after extraction - I find references to it all over the forums, but can't find the actual method.

The link I keep finding in the threads appears to be old and gone:

Tom's TSP method: http://www.internettomatoes.net/WWA3.html

From what I've gathered from this thread http://tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=9820 , it's a soak in 10% TSP solution for 15 minutes and a soak in 10% bleach solution for 30 minutes.

My questions are, is that all there is to the method? and, how do I get a 10% solution of TSP (not sure how to do the math with the powdered TSP)?

Thanks

[TZ-OH6]

I had it all written down someplace last year when I did potato seeds but
I can't find it now.

There was also something about using the TSP in hot water of a certain temperature

How many tablespoons of dry TSP/cup of water?

What temperature of water?

How long to soak vs water temp?

Is there a hot water rinse after the bleach step?


For the potato seed I did one batch with a 30 min bleach soak and another with a much shorter soak. They were two different varieties, but the longer soak had faster gemination. The long soak seeds were so bleached out that I though maybe they were damaged, but the germination success showed that not to be the case.

[TZ-OH6]

I've been picking through things and getting bits and pieces of info but I just found this which is fairly complete...and old writeup by Tom Wagner.



http://tatermater.★★★★★★★★★.com/inde...lay&thread=127

[Chucker]

Awesome find - thanks!

[travis]

You should note that "10% bleach solution" is not the same as "10% sodium hypochlorite."

10% sodium hypochlorite is a bleach that is available at swimming pool and spa supply stores and is used to sanitize pool and hot tub water via a drip system. If you soak tomato seeds in 10% sodium hypochlorite for 30 minutes you can be sure the endosperm will be dead on arrival.

The "10% bleach solution" recommended for sanitizing tomato seeds apparently means "one part household bleach (Clorox or Purex) to 9 or 10 parts water." Household bleach itself typically runs 5.25% sodium hypochlorite. So you can readily see that watering it down with 9 or 10 parts water yields a solution much different than if you used the "10% bleach solution" swimming pool or spa product straight up.

Personally, I think 30 minutes is too long to bleach tomato seeds. I think a minute or 2 while stirring in a solution of 1 part household bleach and 4 parts water is plenty (and that's about a "1.5% bleach solution"). http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/3000/3085.html

I have also used the TSP to remove the gel when cleaning seeds straight from the tomato without fermenting or after a very short overnight or 24 hours in a cup during hot weather when seeds might sprout in a full ferment. Be careful when scrubbing seeds this way though, because occasionally you will rub the hulls right off the endosperm.

TSP is some hot stuff and you will see an immediate reaction on the seeds. They will turn a copper or bronze color immediately and the smell of the solution will change as the oils come up off the seed coats. Be careful with that stuff.

[TomNJ]

Personally I find seed fermentation to be very easy and convenient. Is there a down side to fermenting other than time and odor?

TomNJ

[TZ-OH6]

This gets rid of more diseases (which I don't worry about for the relatively few tomatoes I collect seed from), and for potato seed it gets rid of pesky sprouting inhibitors, plus, potatoes have more of a disease load (from what I understand).

I ferment tomato seeds because it is faster for me (not counting the time the seeds are sitting by themselves rotting), and I have not had any diseases to worry about.


I do need the TSP + Chlolox to get rid of the mildew/black mold in the garage (summer project).

[travis]

Originally Posted by TomNJ

Personally I find seed fermentation to be very easy and convenient. Is there a down side to fermenting other than time and odor?

TomNJ

When fermenting tomato seeds to a full term ferment, I still use a brief bleach bath to make sure all pathogens on the outside of the seed are killed.

Sometimes in the hottest times of the summer, tomato seeds will sprout while fermenting full term. That's when I use TSP to clean the fresh seeds or partially fermented seeds.

[feldon30]

Originally Posted by TomNJ

Personally I find seed fermentation to be very easy and convenient. Is there a down side to fermenting other than time and odor?

TomNJ

Time, odor, mess (mmm... black fungus!), and unpredictability.

You can't plan a trip if you have tomato seeds in the process of fermenting because you have no idea if it will take 3 or 6 days, or how many times you'll have to add water because the tray has started to dry out.

Fermented seeds take a lot more fuss and muss with trying to discard the black fungus mat and checking on the seeds every day.


Processing with TSP or Oxiclean is a total of 30 minutes from squeezing the seeds out of the tomato, to the seeds being on a paper plate set on a shelf somewhere to dry.

And I can batch process 4-5 cups of seeds with only about 5 minutes added time per cup.

[TZ-OH6]

I must be doing it wrong. I don't get any fungal mat and everything is always ready in 4-5 days at room temperature, 3 if I'm lucky. Only the rare fruit that took overly long to ripen ever sprouts seeds while fermenting. I start with a lot of liquid and use covered containers (16 oz deli containers). It only takes 5-10 minutes per variety total, split up with four days in between (post ferment rinse takes about two minutes from jar of primordial soup to paper plate). I often do 5-10 varieties at a time one after the other.


Processing potato seeds with TSP is painfully slow for me.

[feldon30]

I'm not trying to say there is a "right" way to save seeds. I say use whatever works for you.

I always got a fungal mat when I did fermentation, and was happy to have an alternative.

When I first started using Oxiclean, my first instinct was to not even mention it here on Tomatoville because of the strong affinity this site has for fermentation. Maybe my initial judgment was right.

[TZ-OH6]

If I only had a few to do, oxyclean or TSP or Ajax/Comet scrub would be a good option. I wouldn't have to get out my containers and set up my "waiting area". Looking back on my first few times fermenting it was pretty daunting because having containers of rotting goop around is against human nature. Once I figured out how to do it without growing fungus it was less disgusting.

Also, I never did have much faith that fermenting was a reliable method of disease prevention.

[travis]

Originally Posted by TZ-OH6

I never did have much faith that fermenting was a reliable method of disease prevention.

I look at fermentation as a means to break down the gel so that bleach or TSP can finish the work of sanitizing the seed coats.

[carolyn137]

Dr. Helen Dillard was the first person to really look at what fermentation was able to do in terms of eliminating surface pathogens and she said it lessened the burden, but did not totally eliminate. But say now I, since infection with almost any pathogen is dose dependent lessening the pathogen burden always helps.

Dr. Dillard worked at the USDA station in Geneva, NY and had grants to do this work from either Heinz or Campbells, I can't remember which one. I had talked with her on the phone a couple of times. She no longer is there, actuall I think she's on the main Cornell Campus these days, I jsut haven't checked lately. And in an admin position last I knew.

Again, ferementation can only remove those pathogens that are on the exterior of the seed and that includes many of the foliage pathogens as well as some of the systemic pathogens. Most bacterial and viral pathogens are found in the interior, the endosprem of the seed, and only hot water treatment can help eliminate them and never totally.

I've read about TSP and Oxiclean and Comet and acid treatments but I haven't seen any data at all that confirms which pathogens on the surface are removed and what the efficacy of that removal is.

Why do I bring this up?

Mainly b'c I used fermentation for almost all of my seed production, fruits for seeds were often taken from plants that had fungal foliage diseases and yet using those seeds myself and sharing with others I nver saw any carry through with disease on seeds fermented . I don't have systemic diseases where I am so can't speak to that but I know personally that Fusarium has been transferred after fermentation to new plants.

So if folks use TSP, Oxiclean, etc., and don't see any disease carry through how does one interpret that.

I've never done a chlorine bleach of seeds either. Is there any data to say what it removes and to what extent?

So what I'm lookong for is data if any of you have it, for methods of processing seeds other than fermentation in terms of what's removed and to what extent b'c just saying that plants from those treated seeds don't show disease doesn't quite satidfy me since the same can be said for fermentation.

Yes, I know fermantation is messy and takes much longer to do than alternative methods, but that's not what I'm addressing here.

Same as to data from chlorine bleach of previously processed seeds.

[travis]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

I've never done a chlorine bleach of seeds either. Is there any data to say what it removes and to what extent?

So what I'm lookong for is data if any of you have it, for methods of processing seeds other than fermentation in terms of what's removed and to what extent ...

This is all I have found so far.
http://apsjournals.apsnet.org/doi/ab...094/PD-89-1305

It's about spinach seeds, so I suppose you have to project what sort of results you might get for the pathogens common to tomato seed coats.

I'll keep looking for something more related to tomato seed treatments where there's some efficacy data.