I am gonna need a bunch of soil this year, what do you recommend?

Boarhead · December 31, 2011

I did 9 plants last year in 5 gallon bucket. I just used Miracle grow garden soil that I bought cheap at Sams and the plants out-grew the buckets and cages. I ended up having to put 8ft PVP pipe tubes in all the containers and tie the plants up since they were growing over the cages. This year I am doing things a little different & hopefully better. I have been saving up 12 gallon buckets from work and I think they will give the tomatoes plenty of room. The 12 gallon buckets are 22" tall and 14" diameter. I will buy some 6ft or taller welded wire (the tallest I can find) and make my own cages.

I feel like I have the buckets/cages figured out, so now its time to start planning the soil. I didn't realize until after I planted last year that I had bought garden soil and not potting soil. But, the plants seemed to do really well. I also have started a 80 gallon compost bin last year that I will be making compost tea with.

What will be a good media to grow them in that is fair priced and hopefully available at HD or Lowes. I have twelve buckets so I will need around 144 gallons or 20 CuFt of media. Looking to keep the price to about $150 or under. Should I do 4" of gravel/pebbles in the bottom of each bucket to help aid drainage?

Here is what I am growing. (I sorta have a thing for Wild Boar Farms)
4x PINK BERKELEY TIE-DYE
4x SOLAR FLARE
4x PINEAPPLE PIG

Thanks for reading.

Hermitian · December 31, 2011

Shopping at a big box store for gardening materials is often like shopping at 7-Eleven for groceries.

Find out where the quarries are in your area and which ones sell soil by the cubic yard. Typically they deliver in increments of 5 cu.yds. Calculate the total cost including delivery and then divide by cubic feet (1 cu.yd. = 27 cu.ft.). After that, I'll bet you don't go back to a box store for soil !

Worth1 · December 31, 2011

I just read this post and figured out I need about 10 yards of garden soil.

That"s what a tandem dump truck hauls
I'm having it delivered.
And I will rent a skid loader to do the dirty work.
A yard is 27 cubic feet.
Too pricy at the big box store and the so called top soil at HD is really just cheap sandy loam.

Worth

casserole · January 1, 2012

No do not use gravel in bottom ,it will not help with drainage at all. Is seems you had good results last year so I would n't change too much. Maybe try 50 /50 Potting Mix / Potting Soil

kurt · January 1, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boarhead

I did 9 plants last year in 5 gallon bucket. I just used Miracle grow garden soil that I bought cheap at Sams and the plants out-grew the buckets and cages. I ended up having to put 8ft PVP pipe tubes in all the containers and tie the plants up since they were growing over the cages. This year I am doing things a little different & hopefully better. I have been saving up 12 gallon buckets from work and I think they will give the tomatoes plenty of room. The 12 gallon buckets are 22" tall and 14" diameter. I will buy some 6ft or taller welded wire (the tallest I can find) and make my own cages.

I feel like I have the buckets/cages figured out, so now its time to start planning the soil. I didn't realize until after I planted last year that I had bought garden soil and not potting soil. But, the plants seemed to do really well. I also have started a 80 gallon compost bin last year that I will be making compost tea with.

What will be a good media to grow them in that is fair priced and hopefully available at HD or Lowes. I have twelve buckets so I will need around 144 gallons or 20 CuFt of media. Looking to keep the price to about $150 or under. Should I do 4" of gravel/pebbles in the bottom of each bucket to help aid drainage?

Here is what I am growing. (I sorta have a thing for Wild Boar Farms)
4x PINK BERKELEY TIE-DYE
4x SOLAR FLARE
4x PINEAPPLE PIG

Thanks for reading.

I grow here in S Florida and have a supplier that sells Pro Mix HP that comes in compressed bales of 3.6cubic ft/bale.for $25.00/bale and delivers for free at 150.00 per order.It has the right amount of perlite and peat plus micronize beneficial fungus.it drains really well and does not mud up or cake up if you will.The local in ground soil contains too many bugs and we have a salt water intrusion problem down here plus the humidity generates too much fungus and molds plus is somewhat too sandy and has too much limestone rocks and you get the picture.I grow in containers also and the key would be drain holes so the water does not collect in the bottoms and start a medium for root rot and a medium for the fungus and molds and who knows what not.I have never used any pebbles or shards of old terra cotta because the Pro Mix drains good enough for me.Good Luck and Happy New Year.

kurt · January 1, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boarhead

I did 9 plants last year in 5 gallon bucket. I just used Miracle grow garden soil that I bought cheap at Sams and the plants out-grew the buckets and cages. I ended up having to put 8ft PVP pipe tubes in all the containers and tie the plants up since they were growing over the cages. This year I am doing things a little different & hopefully better. I have been saving up 12 gallon buckets from work and I think they will give the tomatoes plenty of room. The 12 gallon buckets are 22" tall and 14" diameter. I will buy some 6ft or taller welded wire (the tallest I can find) and make my own cages.

I feel like I have the buckets/cages figured out, so now its time to start planning the soil. I didn't realize until after I planted last year that I had bought garden soil and not potting soil. But, the plants seemed to do really well. I also have started a 80 gallon compost bin last year that I will be making compost tea with.

What will be a good media to grow them in that is fair priced and hopefully available at HD or Lowes. I have twelve buckets so I will need around 144 gallons or 20 CuFt of media. Looking to keep the price to about $150 or under. Should I do 4" of gravel/pebbles in the bottom of each bucket to help aid drainage?

Here is what I am growing. (I sorta have a thing for Wild Boar Farms)
4x PINK BERKELEY TIE-DYE
4x SOLAR FLARE
4x PINEAPPLE PIG

Thanks for reading.

I grow here in S Florida and have a supplier that sells Pro Mix HP that comes in compressed bales of 3.6cubic ft/bale.for $25.00/bale and delivers for free at 150.00 per order.It has the right amount of perlite and peat plus micronize beneficial fungus.it drains really well and does not mud up or cake up if you will.The local in ground soil contains too many bugs and we have a salt water intrusion problem down here plus the humidity generates too much fungus and molds plus is somewhat too sandy and has too much limestone rocks and you get the picture.I grow in containers also and the key would be drain holes so the water does not collect in the bottoms and start a medium for root rot and a medium for the fungus and molds and who knows what not.I have never used any pebbles or shards of old terra cotta because the Pro Mix drains good enough for me.Good Luck and Happy New Year.P.S.To extend your cage height I have used the 6x6 by 10x 10 sidewalk mesh left over from some of my contruction sites,and even the ladder concrete block reinforcing(all Galvinized)that you can stack and tie to increase the height and has large enough openings for harvest.

dice · January 1, 2012

You probably have more than one landscape supply company around
a city the size of Nashville where you can get appropriate stuff by
the truckload. Here is the first one that Google came up with:
http://www.topsoilcompany.com/order_retail.aspx

I would guess that either their Lightweight Mix or Mushroom Compost
would be fine in your containers. A lot of it will decay to silt each year
in the heat of summer, losing air space, so you want to mix something
like their brown coarse sand or perlite or rice hulls with it each year
to add back air space that has been lost to organic decay.

Another local place:
http://www.mulchcompany.com/products.php#soils

Boarhead · January 1, 2012

Thank You. Looks like I will be getting some lightweight Mix locally!!

Hermitian · January 2, 2012

Here is the soil mix I have made for my nursery operation. It is designed for perennial shrubs, vines, and trees:

Cubic Yards -- Substance
20 -- Fine-grained Composted Greens
20 -- Sphagnum Peat Moss
10 -- Horticultural Sand (3/16 screened gravel)
10 -- Perlite #3 or similar
1 -- Fresh Worm Castings

The fresh worm castings serve as an inoculant of worm eggs and beneficial bacteria.

FOR TOMATOES and other annuals, the mix is too dense for fast root growth. To compensate I add more Perlite or similar such as 1/4-inch pumice. This looks like:

Quantity -- Substance
2 -- Fine-grained Composted Greens
2 -- Sphagnum Peat Moss
1 -- Horticultural Sand (3/16 screened gravel)
3 -- Perlite #3 or similar
trace -- Fresh Worm Castings

I also shake a minor amount of mycorrhizae powder on the roots when transplanting. No need to go crazy with it -- a teaspoon is plenty for a 3 cubic foot bareroot rootball.

z_willus_d · January 3, 2012

Hi Richard,

I'm building up raised beds of cinder-blocks and need to fill with a good, healthy soil base. For your tomato-mix indicated above, what are some examples of "Fine-grained Composted Greens?" I'm in Sacramento, CA, which is fairly close to the valley and farm country. I just need to know what the options are for that item. I've generally purchased Sphagnum Peat Moss in bales at the large HD/Lowes type stores, but they are awful pricey. Hopefully I can find volume supplier in the area.

If you have a moment, I would appreciate if you could jump to the below link and give me your take on the six products listed; where they might fit in your above recipe, if at all:
http://www.gohasties.com/apps/photos...lbumid=6663607

For topsoil and sand, they have these options:
http://www.gohasties.com/apps/photos...lbumid=6593004
and
http://www.gohasties.com/apps/photos...lbumid=8735806

I'd appreciate your thoughts on the applicability of any of these offerings as applies to your above formulation.

Thank you for lending your time and expertise
Naysen

Hermitian · January 3, 2012

The key thing about building raised beds is to allow some side drainage, maybe a better term would be side seepage. I have used both cinder block and "Legacy" 16x9x6 stackable retaining block to build beds. The latter is great for slope or a big area, otherwise each block level indents 1.5 inches on each side which can result in a narrow top. I have used cinder block in both narrow areas and areas I needed to protect from invasive roots. I recommend that you do not put mortar between the blocks, but certainly run some rebar down the lengths and fill the insides with either dirt or cement -- depending on how permanent a structure you desire.

For peat moss, check with the farm-supply chain Crop Production Services for the 3.8 cu-ft compressed bags, and see if they can also obtain the compressed cubic yard bales. Also check with the material supply place you found and ask who they buy bulk from.

In the mulch and compost industries, a general term is "green waste" which refers to collected homeowner (and farm) plant trimmings -- incl. branches, trunks, and stumps. Mulch is coarse, for above ground use only and compost is finer and used for soil mixes. By law in CA, all compost must be cured in a specified manner for a certain period of time. Mulch does not. Further, the better greenery facilities will grind and cure just about everything that comes in and then sort on size. This is great, because now you don't have to worry about mulch containing a fresh branch from someone's infected tree. When I say fine-grained compost, I am referring to material that is similar in granularity to ground peat moss. Typically it is about half material at the ground peat granularity, and the other half is material a step or two up from that size. Also you'll find a few twigs that managed their way in.

Ok, here's the issue with sand. There are many types and typically none of it is "sand" as a beach-goer would imagine. Playground sand is mandated in CA to be treated with both pesticides and herbicides, so stay away from that. Mortar sand is not always a good thing for plants (sometimes contains a surfactant).

In the world of aggregates (quarries), "gravel" is a range of rock sizes in between "sand" and "stone". All of it is coming out of a rock crusher. You want to make sure it is coming from crushed quarry rock and not crushed radioactive cement.

The quarry operators talk about screen sizes. The screens by the way are big metal sheets with horizontal slits of a certain width. A single screen can cost (new) $50k. What you are looking for is "3/16th inch minus" screened rock. In a large quarry operations where a multitude of sizes are produced, it is called Horticultural Sand. It is actually larger than most sands and the smallest "gravel". It also contains some sand-size material and some dust.

If obtaining that is just too troublesome, then of course settle on the largest screen-size sand they offer.

As long as we a talking about quarry products: the "dust" that is left over after all the screening is what quarry operators refer to as "crusher dust". It is a bain because it is dense, volatile in the wind like flour, and something they are always looking to get rid of. Typically, they give it away. Well, a lot of people buy rock dust which is crusher dust. I have had it lab tested many times. It is insoluble in water and takes years to break down in the soil. It is an extremely expensive way to add rock to your planter bed. The sellers are laughing all the way to the bank.

I don't use topsoil in my soil mixes. Top soil is designed as a dressing and underbedding for lawns. The mineral content is often very low.

dipchip2000 · January 3, 2012

Great thread

I have been following your ideas and thinking and you say no rock dust from a quarry.
Ok then where do you obtain the rock that will supply minerals quickly and efficiently that will be usable by the plant sooner?

thanks
ron

Hermitian · January 3, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by dipchip2000

I have been following your ideas and thinking and you say no rock dust from a quarry. Ok then where do you obtain the rock that will supply minerals quickly and efficiently that will be usable by the plant sooner?
thanks
ron

A direct answer is: you don't obtain the minerals plants need from water-insoluble rocks, or from weak-acid insoluble rocks. Yet, rock dust, sand, and gravels are essential for long-term plant soils in terms of physical properties.

Plants feed on inorganic minerals in the water-soluble form. Cottonseed meal has to be broken down by various agents before plants can use the Nitrogen and minerals it contains. The same is true for bone meal, etc.

I don't have a problem with free rock dust, or especially rock dust incorporated in Horticultural Sand. "3/16th minus" means top-screened only: everything that falls through goes into the product.

Ok, once-upon-a-time I saw paver base sand re-packaged and sold as Horticultural Sand at exorbitant price at a big box store. Watch out for that! Paver base sand is about the right size but does not contain the smaller particles.

z_willus_d · January 3, 2012

Richard, thanks again for the responses to my questions.

I'll look into that Crop Production Services Agg supplier. Hopefully, they'll be willing to sale to an end-customer individual customer like myself.

All that background on the "green waste" and sand was very enjoyable to consume.

In terms of actions I can take to procure these items, my take-away from your responses is that I need to (a) obtain the Peat in bales from an Agg Supplier or look for a bulk supply; (b) obtain the 3/16" minus sand from a quarry (I'll have to find one); and (c) as to procurement of the "Fine-grained composted greens," I really don't know where to look. That sounds like your basic backyard compost pile, but I've recently moved and tend to vermicompost rather than focus on accrual of a pile of green clippings in a compost bin. Shall I turn to the Agg Supply for this green compost as well? Would mushroom compost or forest humus work for this?

I noted that you haven't said anything about the usefulness or application of manures, such as horse, chicken, rabbit, etc. Do you view those more as fertilizer sources (N) rather than also a means of building up soil matter? I generally use the free horse manure I can procure as a cheap way of helping to fill in "the holes."

As for the cinder-block raised beds, you can get an idea of what I'm building off the attached pics. I just half-way bury the lower of two blocks and fill the holes in the blocks with stones. This seams to provide a stable base. In the past, I've driven rebar down on the inner sides of the holes in an attempt to hold the blocks in place, but I'm going to forgo the rebar this time and rely on the surrounding soil (base) and rocks on the inside to weigh them down and hold in place. There will be small cm sized cracks between the blocks due to imperfections in manufacture and my leveling and placement. I think the beds should work well.

Naysen

Hermitian · January 3, 2012

Quote: