what is the point of organic container gardening?

[unless]

why should i garden organically if all my gardening is done in earthtainers (well, beyond the ethical reasons)? specifically, i'm talking about synthetic vs. organic fertilizer use (whereas for things like pest control measures, i'll stick with my organic methods).

what are the advantages and disadvantages of organics in containers? is there sufficient microbial activity in a self-contained environment to adequately break down poop and fish emulsion and such? i'm curious, because i sure have gone through a lot of espoma garden-tone and liquid fish & kelp, and the plants still seem insatiably hungry for nutrients. perhaps they break down too slowly? i apply liquid fish & kelp weekly (even doubling the rate to 4-6-4), but i might as well be blowing kisses into the soil because i can't tell any difference.

does the use of organic fertilizers prolong the life of my soilless mix (as compared to synthetics, where salt buildup would occur over time)?

i'm flustered to the point of leaning toward synthetics, but i don't want to head down some slippery slope where i end up irreparably screwing up the several cubic yards of mix i've so lovingly made with boatloads of salts, or eradicating any and all beneficial insects and/or microbes in it by burning them with chemicals.

this quandary all arose when i went google-shopping for liquid fertilizers and arrived at two choices:

THIS 6-12-6 product which contains synthetic urea (but supposedly is otherwise naturally-derived and is advertised as a "low-salt" formulation):

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Medina-1-...ct_description

or THIS combination of 5-1-1 fish emulsion (for N) and 0-10-10 "bloom" fertilizer (for P and K), the latter containing phosphoric acid (another point of contention, i might add, because phosphoric acid is used as a food additive and can be present in small amounts in organic fertilizers, yet its copious use in this blend somehow disqualifies it from OMRI certification, as though there is an invisible threshold where phosphoric acid goes from okay to not okay):

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Alaska-5-...9#.Ub6s_tiSKSp

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Alaska-1-...7#.Ub6tFNiSKSo

any help? anybody use these products? hasta gro? alaska fish fertilizer? (i'm currently using medina brand fish & kelp, and as i said earlier, it does not appear to be doing anything).

more importantly though, i want someone to enlighten me as to how to make organic container gardening fruitful, or to convince me that going synthetic won't ruin my soil and isn't as scary as i think it is.

[sprtsguy76]

I keep it organic in the ground but use synthetic everywhere else. Pots containers and swc's. The organic method in containers is much more hit n miss for me. it can be done but not worth the time and effort in my eyes. Miracle Grow has this fairly new complete time realease fert that I just love. Just reapply every 6-12 weeks.

And no I don't spray my plants with anything other than organic products either (if I even do that).

Damon

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

[amideutch]

In SWC's, which is a closed system, you put a fertilizer strip, normally inorganic ferts on top of the aggregate and the unit is bottom watered. As the ferts are not watered into the aggregate they will slow release into the growing media. This fertilizer strip should provide nutrients for the life of the plant. If you use organic ferts for the strip they may not break down fast enough to satisfy the nutrient requirements of the plant especially in the growth/fruiting phase.

Inorganic fertilizer salt build up should not be a problem in SWC's as it should be depleted by the end of the growing cycle and is only a one time application. For me open containers lend there selves better to organic growing than SWC's as I can adjust my organic fertilizer applications to the growth phase of the plant. I inoculate my plant and aggregate with beneficial fungi, bacteria and Myco's on plant out. The organic ferts I use not only feed the plant but the Myco's as well.

For me growing organically gives me a better product with a higher Brix than I could get from inorganic methods. There is nothing to say that you can't incorporate organic products into an SWC. You can mix alfalfa meal, kelp meal, and bone meal to name a few into your growing aggregate to supplement your fertilizer strip. I would do this on one tainer and see how it works out. Definitely use Myco's on plant out. Raybo can tell you what fert works best for the fertilizer strip as he has tested several.

For your area EarthTainers make more sense as they are better able to take the high temperatures in your area especially if you have the auto top up watering system for the Tainer reservoirs. Reusing the aggregate from the Tainers should not be a problem as long as you add new aggregate to the old.

Here are a few sites with organic products to give you an idea whats out there. You may be able to get the same products at other sites cheaper including Amazon.com.

http://www.planetnatural.com/product...ry-fertilizer/

http://www.allseasonsnashville.com/G...g_supplies.htm

[FILMNET]

The Alaska one really stinks and is not organic, a few yeras ago they had organic on the bottles. And then took it off, Neptune Harvest is the best.

[Master_Gardener]

I have pondered this issue more than once and do not have the answer. The answer may be "it depends."

To the best of my knowledge, the Soil Food Web cannot be efficiently switched off and on. If containers are used only for a short time, say to raise tomatoes, what happens to the SFW during the months when you are not maintaining it? It can't be optimum, can it? Does anyone do a soil test or consider percent organic matter when using containers? I don't know anyone who has.

Also, all containers are not equal. I would expect differences between a SWC and the traditional pot with holes in the bottom as far as fertilization goes. In a SWC, the soil and fertilizers stay in place while the container with holes in the bottom can lose nutrients through the bottom requiring more frequent fertilization.

I recently became aware of the Mittleider Method of gardening. I am not promoting it, but it does seem to work. If I understand it correctly, it uses beds with a mix of sawdust and sand and chemical fertilizers (10-10-10) with micro-nutrients. It requires irrigation and weekly fertilization since the mix does not hold onto anything. It seems to be a hybrid between raised bed and hydroponic. I don't know what happens in the bed as the sawdust breaks down over time. By using chemical fertilizers only, there is no way to build a soil food web, but I think that is the idea. You can build the system and grow at maximum productivity the first year.

My ideal approach to gardening is to have minimal (external) inputs and maximum outputs. The Mittleider Method does not do this, neither does much organic farming that relies on the continuous applications of store-bought fertilizers and soil amendments. I'm not dissing any method that works, just stating my preferences. We each have our reasons for taking our approach to gardening.

I don't know if anyone has done a side by side comparison of Mittleider vs. Organic gardening as far as Brix or Nutrient Density go.

[amideutch]

I recently became aware of the Mittleider Method of gardening. I am not promoting it, but it does seem to work.

I have just about every book written by Mittleider. The growing bed is a one time use and has to be renewed every year. And since it uses only inorganic mineral salts leaching of salts into the soil can be a problem as is spent hydroponic nutrient solutions. For areas where soil is inadequate for crop production the Mittleider system can't be beat.

the container with holes in the bottom can lose nutrients through the bottom requiring more frequent fertilization.

That's a given and the plus is better aeration of the aggregate and you have more control over the ferts given to the plant whether it be in the growing phase or fruiting phase. Fabric pots such as Geo or Smart pots work well and nutrient loss is minimal unless you flood them.

I don't know if anyone has done a side by side comparison of Mittleider vs. Organic gardening as far as Brix or Nutrient Density go.

A comparison was done on tomatoes in 3 plots. #1 fertilized by chicken manure, #2 by bokashi and #3 by chemical fertilizer.
Sugars and organic acid levels were taken from the fruits from each plot.
Sugars measured were Sucrose, Glucose and Fructose.
Organic acids measured were Citric and Malic.
Plot Sugars (g kg-1) Organic Acids (g kg-1) Sugars/acids
#1..........64.2........................8.12...... .........................7.91
#2..........59.1........................8.83...... .........................6.70
#3..........50.5........................8.05...... .........................6.28

Reference "Nature Farming and Microbial Applications" by Xu, Parr and Umemura

[RayR]

I can't speak with any experience with Earthtainers, Earthboxes, etc... because I've never had one, but my standard containers work very well with organic methods, partly because they are an open system.
I think people who are more familiar with synthetics and their instant gratification have a hard time grasping what makes a natural organic system work.
Organic inputs and fertilizers require a Soil Food Web to make the inorganic plant available nutrients—period! Bacteria and fungi are a critical part of the Soil Food Web, but they are not all you need for a functioning system. A great deal of the nutrients hoarded by bacteria an saprophytic fungi won't be plant available without the predators who eat them and excrete the excess nutrients into the soil in plant available forms. Protozoa, Nematodes, arthropods, worms and insects all play a critical role in completing the Soil Food Web. Very easy to do in an open container with drain holes, critters like earthworms, arthropods and insects find their way in by themselves, the others can be added by amending with compost and forest humus, use your own or buy a bag of high quality living organic potting soil. Mycorrhizae, Trichoderma and beneficial bacteria can be supplemented by inoculants.
If someone can perfect that kind of diversity of life in a closed system like an Earthtainer, then you'd have the results that you're looking for.

[unless]

hmm. i am intrigued by the this mittleider method; however, any setup in which large quantities of chemical fertilizers are washed out rather than absorbed has me a little concerned.

rayr, it has occurred to me that perhaps i had a misconception of what defines an open versus a closed system. i thought a closed system just meant that water/nutrients don't leach out; i didn't realize that a closed system, by definition, is also sealed from the top as well (by an impermeable mulch, like plastic sheeting). see, my earthtainers are actually open to the elements from above, so i guess i inadvertently created an open system. i did this under the assumption that plastic mulch would make the soil too hot in my climate (though, the biggest reason was that i was just too lazy to cut a bunch of tiny holes in trash bags, which is a pain when you're planting lots of bush beans and closely-spaced things). i did put down a mulch layer, but i used local pecan shells, which are hardly impermeable.

now that i consider that my espoma garden-tone contains "beneficial microbes," and i did inoculate everything with mycorrhizal fungi before planting, maybe my soilless mix is more "alive" than i initially presumed.

but how can i improve upon this? should i go out and buy earthworms and introduce them into my earthtainers?

also, back to the liquid fertilizer question, do you think this product, which contains urea, would be bad for soil life?

http://www.organic-gardening-shop.co...20Plant%20Food

it is advertised as follows: "Low-salt, low-chemical formulation prevents leaf burn. Stimulates, strengthens and multiplies the soil's indigenous microbes and bacteria, which in turn convert nutrients into usable food for plants. Also balances soil microflora, pH, soil structure. Reduces salt accumulations, chemical build-ups and soil compaction."

here is the label. it does not appear strictly organic, even though the product description says "Nitrogen is derived from clean urea sources and is complexed with humic acid":

http://www.medinaag.com/labels/HastaGro%20Plant.pdf

it also appears on lots of organic retailers' websites. i hope medina isn't perpetrating a fraud here.

[Master_Gardener]

Originally Posted by amideutch

A comparison was done on tomatoes in 3 plots. #1 fertilized by chicken manure, #2 by bokashi and #3 by chemical fertilizer.
Sugars and organic acid levels were taken from the fruits from each plot.
Sugars measured were Sucrose, Glucose and Fructose.
Organic acids measured were Citric and Malic.
Plot Sugars (g kg-1) Organic Acids (g kg-1) Sugars/acids
#1..........64.2........................8.12...... .........................7.91
#2..........59.1........................8.83...... .........................6.70
#3..........50.5........................8.05...... .........................6.28

Reference "Nature Farming and Microbial Applications" by Xu, Parr and Umemura

Thanks for the reference.

[RayR]

Originally Posted by unless

rayr, it has occurred to me that perhaps i had a misconception of what defines an open versus a closed system. i thought a closed system just meant that water/nutrients don't leach out; i didn't realize that a closed system, by definition, is also sealed from the top as well (by an impermeable mulch, like plastic sheeting). see, my earthtainers are actually open to the elements from above, so i guess i inadvertently created an open system. i did this under the assumption that plastic mulch would make the soil too hot in my climate (though, the biggest reason was that i was just too lazy to cut a bunch of tiny holes in trash bags, which is a pain when you're planting lots of bush beans and closely-spaced things). i did put down a mulch layer, but i used local pecan shells, which are hardly impermeable.

now that i consider that my espoma garden-tone contains "beneficial microbes," and i did inoculate everything with mycorrhizal fungi before planting, maybe my soilless mix is more "alive" than i initially presumed.

but how can i improve upon this? should i go out and buy earthworms and introduce them into my earthtainers?

Has anyone ever populated their earthtainer with earthworms, protozoa and nematodes besides bacteria, mycorrhizal and trichoderma fungi? It sounds like an interesting experiment to see what's missing from attempts at an organic earthtainer. I mean something has to be missing if organic nutrients are not being mineralized in sufficient quantities.
I understand your tainer is open at the top, but not every beneficial can get in from the top unless you purposefully add them. I'm sure some people have done a successful organic SWC, even accidentally by adding the right variety of soil life.

Originally Posted by unless

also, back to the liquid fertilizer question, do you think this product, which contains urea, would be bad for soil life?

http://www.organic-gardening-shop.co...20Plant%20Food

it is advertised as follows: "Low-salt, low-chemical formulation prevents leaf burn. Stimulates, strengthens and multiplies the soil's indigenous microbes and bacteria, which in turn convert nutrients into usable food for plants. Also balances soil microflora, pH, soil structure. Reduces salt accumulations, chemical build-ups and soil compaction."

here is the label. it does not appear strictly organic, even though the product description says "Nitrogen is derived from clean urea sources and is complexed with humic acid":

http://www.medinaag.com/labels/HastaGro%20Plant.pdf

it also appears on lots of organic retailers' websites. i hope medina isn't perpetrating a fraud here.

No I don't see a problem with Hasta-Gro being bad for soil life. Urea is a carbon molecule and is a naturally occurring byproduct of life (think urine), even though it can be made synthetically. Many bacteria will convert urea into ammonium for their own N needs.
The only thing that makes Hasta-Gro not strictly organic is the salty synthetic EDTA chelates.

[Deborah]

I use organic soil and E.B. Stone foods. Just makes me feel better.

[Sun City Linda]

I'm sure its possible to use only organic ferts in a closed sytem SWC and get good results. After two years of spending more time and money than I enjoyed, and getting less good tomatoes than I had hoped, I converted my dozen or so Earthboxes to synthetics and blends. Its been good for me, and I have never looked back!

[Balr14]

I used the Alaska organic tomato and vegetable pellets in my earth boxes for a few years. I started adding Miracle Grow liquid through the filler tubes last year. I got great results. This year has been cold and wet, just warmed up to the 70s about a week ago. So, the plants are growing slower than last year. But, not too bad. (Don't mind the way the lettuce looks, it's about half picked, second planting soon).

[Tania]

I use organic fertilizers in my containers. It works wonderfully. The only issue is the soil mix being a bit heavy because 50% of it is manure or compost. I am happy with the results, so I am not motivated to change anything in the way I do my container gardening.

I do not have self-watering containers or Earthtainers.

[mdvpc]

Balr-how do your tomatoes do in the city pickers?