Saving seeds from one tomato vs. another

[enchant]

I was having a couple beers with my brother the other night. He also grows tomatoes, although he grows strictly from flats purchased at a nursery, whereas I've recently started growing from seeds purchased mail order.

I brought over one of my larger, more splendid Brandywines, which really impressed him. "They all coming in that big?" "No, this is one of the biggest."

He told me that I should save the seeds from this specific tomato and plant only those next year, and that would give me plants with big tomatoes. I'm no botanist, but I can't believe it works that way. I'd think that if a plant produces small tomatoes and large tomatoes, the seeds from one shouldn't produce offspring that are substantially different from those from another.

Am I wrong about this? I bought a packet of 250 Brandywine seeds, and I have 244 left. Is there any reason I should be saving seeds from any of these tomatoes?

[kurt]

Some of your question is being discussed on another area here.

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=32387

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by kurt

Some of your question is being discussed on another area here.

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=32387

Kurt, I just posted in that thead a few minutes ago, but I think the question here is a different one having to do with making fruit selections for various reasons and what i can relate about that to the original poster, and of course others here as well.

But right now i have no time so will come back later, I don't know when, and try to answer.

Carolyn

[Darren Abbey]

One aspect of plant biology which makes this idea have some merit is that the different branches may have accumulated different mutations relative to each other. The consequence of this is that if you always select the largest/best fruit on a plant, you may be selecting for mutations which have occurred in that branch which may have helped make large fruit… Though it is much more likely if every fruit on a branch is larger than those on other branches.

I don't know that this has been examined in detail in tomatoes, but in the human case each person is thought to have approximately 60 new mutations not found in their parents. (http://www.sanger.ac.uk/about/press/2011/110612.html) I could imagine doing some calculations to derive the expected number of new mutations between two branches/fruit on a tomato plant, from the known rate of mutations and the number of cell divisions between any two places on the plant.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Darren Abbey

One aspect of plant biology which makes this idea have some merit is that the different branches may have accumulated different mutations relative to each other. The consequence of this is that if you always select the largest/best fruit on a plant, you may be selecting for mutations which have occurred in that branch which may have helped make large fruit… Though it is much more likely if every fruit on a branch is larger than those on other branches.

I don't know that this has been examined in detail in tomatoes, but in the human case each person is thought to have approximately 60 new mutations not found in their parents. (http://www.sanger.ac.uk/about/press/2011/110612.html) I could imagine doing some calculations to derive the expected number of new mutations between two branches/fruit on a tomato plant, from the known rate of mutations and the number of cell divisions between any two places on the plant.

I think what you're referring to is the difference between a DNA seed mutation and one that occurs in the DNA of a plant cell, which is called a somatic mutation.

With a somatic mutation one can get just one fruit of a different color than normal, that's how Yellow Risesentraube was found, all other fruits being the normal red color.

With a somatic mutation it depends on where the cell is located that sustains that mutation as to what youll get.

Many times it's just one branch that has fruits of a different shape or color from the rest of the fruits on a plant and those somatic mutations are spontaneous and heritable, so any seeds from them will give fruits that look the same.

A couple of examples.

Casino Chips is a cherry sized one that was found on one branch of the variety Casino, which is a large red.

I've seen a couple of them myself, thay aren't common.

Dix Doight de Naples gave me one branch that still had red fruits, but they were a different shape from the others.

Green Gage, which is yellow, gave me one branch of all red fruits, same size, same shape as the normal ones.

Another T storm coming so I'll have to come back later to post about saving seeds from just one fruit and adapation, and why saving seeds from just one fruit shouldn't be done, adaptation not with standing.

Carolyn

[GaMadGardener]

Darren is correct. As with any plant, there will be minor mutations. This is where selective breeding plays a role. With heirlooms, It's common that after 3 generation in a new area, you get a better crop. It's those minute changes in each generation, that help it adjust to it's new conditions.

Mad

[joseph]

That seems so weird to me... I typically don't look at my tomato plants closely enough that I'd be able to notice if one branch of a plant had different shapes, colors, or sizes of fruit. I might save seeds from the odd-branch but I'd be unlikely to notice that it originated as a somatic mutation.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by GaMadGardener

Darren is correct. As with any plant, there will be minor mutations. This is where selective breeding plays a role. With heirlooms, It's common that after 3 generation in a new area, you get a better crop. It's those minute changes in each generation, that help it adjust to it's new conditions.

Mad

Mad, I just posted above your post and said that I'd be back to talk about the one tomato thing, but I did post above about the difference between seed DNA mutations andplant cell, somatic DNA mutations.

Having grown a few thousands of tomato varieties in diffeent locations, I have problems when you say it's COMMON that after growing a variety in a new area 3 times that one gets a better crop/

That leaves out a lot of variables as to the weather in one season, the soil used in a new area, etc, how differently were the plants grown and many more variables, so I have problems attributing it solely to possible accumalative mutations.

Carolyn

[Worth1]

Here in Texas if you save seeds from tomatoes in successive generations you will end up with a cactus in about 50 years.

Okay sorry bad joke.

Worth

[GaMadGardener]

Carolyn, point taken.

Mad

[Worth1]

I found this interesting and even I could understand it.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...nnxYJOg65KJyPQ

Worth

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Worth1

I found this interesting and even I could understand it.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...nnxYJOg65KJyPQ

Worth

It is interesting Worth, but the article is talking about apples and roses and fruit flies, and conceptually it's the same in tomatoes, in that there are both seed DNA and plant cell DNA mutations, it's not the same.

In post 5 above I did post about both seed and somatic DNA mutations and gave examples.

And I still haveto post aboutsaving seeds fromjustone fruitand thepossibility of seeds takenfromthat fruitgivingrise tothe same whensownthenext year.

But I've had it for today. Just constant rain and T-storms and when that close I turn off my computer,never use the TV and if really bad go to bed and cover my head and silently sing some songs of protetion.

Carolyn

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by joseph

That seems so weird to me... I typically don't look at my tomato plants closely enough that I'd be able to notice if one branch of a plant had different shapes, colors, or sizes of fruit. I might save seeds from the odd-branch but I'd be unlikely to notice that it originated as a somatic mutation.

Joseph, I don't prowl my tomato patch looking for somatic mutations but when picking fruits it's hard to miss them.

With a mutation in seed DNA that's expressed there can be a lea form change for thewhole plant, an internode distancechange leading to a plant habit change,and more,but seed mutations don't lead to one fruit being different from all others, I gave an example above,nor do they give rise to a single branch that can have different shaped,or colored,or size fruits that can appear on that one branch.

Only DNA mutations that occur in the DNA of a plant cell,somatic mutations,can do that.

Carolyn

[Worth1]

Carolyn what is up with your space bar today.
Or are you typing really fast between the lightning strikes.

Worh

[taboule]

I dontthink itsonlyCarolyn, Ihave thesameissue sometimesand itsnotbecause Itypefast.