Big healthy plants, but few blossom clusters...

[squirrel789]

Hello All,

I am noticing a pattern with nearly all of the tomato plants in my container garden that I would very much like to like to understand, so if I did something wrong I can remedy it for next year. The plants are mostly proven hybrids but with a few heirloom varieties as well. The cause might also be the stretch of unseasonably wet weather we had shortly after planting, which I obviously can't control, but I would be very curious and thankful to hear what any you knowledgeable folks may think the most likely culprit.

All the plants put on a flower cluster or two pretty low to the ground, when the plants were about a foot or slightly taller, which so far haven't set hardly any fruit (2 toms to be exact, out of 8 plants). Now the plants are growing fast in the warm weather and are reaching 4' and some almost 5' tall, with healthy foliage and thick stems (all have been pruned to two vines), no serious pest problems or discernible diseases, plenty of sunlight, and consistently moist growing medium.

The problem: I'm noticing that there are very few to no blossom clusters (on some vines) in the 3' section above the not-so-productive ones near the very bottom. Luckily, blossom clusters have grown again around the 3' to 3.5' foot mark, looking normal and healthy with more clusters forming steadily at much closer intervals from there on up. In previous years, when I grew tomatoes in the ground, it seemed that once the clusters began forming near the bottom, they would continue to form at regular, fairly close intervals from that point on up the vines. I know there can be several reasons blossoms don't form, but I wonder what is most likely.

From what I've read elsewhere on the forum, here are a few details that might be pertinent:
1. I used TFF (low nitrogen) fertilizer per recommended instructions early on when I saw the first clusters appear at the bottom, but due to the frequent rain and unseasonably cool weather (well, cool for MO anyway), I discontinued after a few uses because I basically stopped having to water them. The mix, mulched with pine bark, was already quite moist and I was afraid I'd do more harm than good over-watering them by adding a water-based fertilizer. Maybe that was silly, but that's what I did.
2. The container is a 170 Gal galvanized water trough (lots of details elsewhere in another thread here in the container section), and the growing medium is essentially a 2-2-1 ratio of local nursery compost, peat moss, and vermiculite.
3. During the first very significant growth spurt, the weather was hot and sunny, seemingly perfect weather around here for tomatoes to really start growing. The vines grew thick and very quickly. The season is just now really getting into full swing here and they are still growing quickly, with normal foliage, and looking healthy - just very few or no blossom clusters on the lower 3' or so.
4. I've used some DE around the plants and in the mulch several times, some Safer insecticidal soap, as well as a .01% pyrethrin/canola oil spray once or twice for a few aphids and assorted pests, but only on the leaves being careful not to spray any blossoms. There haven't been any serious pest problems since, just the occasional ones I remove manually.
5. Soil PH has been tested 3 times since I planted with my ph meter (good quality, but not professional) and has stayed right around 6.5-ish.
6. No high nitrogen fertilizer was used, except for what nitrogen was in the compost component (it was well aged from a local nursery and it looked like rich black soil - no fresh manure, bad smell or anything odd). I realize the nitrogen level of the compost is somewhat of an X factor, but I've read other people here have grown decent tomato plants with the basic ratios and components I used in my mix.

The plants appear to be getting back on track with more closely spaced clusters above the 3'-3.5' mark, so I'm not that worried (except for having to build a much taller trellis). I also plan to start using the TFF again to encourage the blossoms forming higher up on the plant.

Still, I wonder if I should have done something differently. Is this normal behavior, given all the wet weather early on and the unknown nitrogen content of the compost?

Is there any possible hope that these long cluster-less sections may still grow some blossom clusters from the vines, despite the fact that there are already well developed blossoms further up? That's mostly wishful thinking

Any thoughts or advice would be much appreciated! I'd love to learn more about how more closely spaced blossom clusters can be achieved, or if what I've got is normal given my container mix and weather conditions.

Thanks for any and all responses!

[Nematode]

http://www.semena.org/agro/Tomat-3-e...haracteristics

From the link
Characteristics excessive vegetative growth


The following observations can be made when there is too much vegetative development:
1. Relatively small amount of fruits on the plant.
2. Low fruit weight, taking into consideration the characteristics of the variety.
3. Head of the plant is too large. Position of upper flower cluster is too low, too much foliage above the cluster. Normally there are three leaves above the upper cluster, which is approx. 15 cm. (depending on the variety).
4. Flower trusses are too long and not uniform in shape.
5. Plants do not form good shaped tomatoes, "king fruits" might occur.
6. Difficult fruit setting.
7. On top of the clusters foliage or side shoots might occur.
8. Stems have more hairs.
Measures towards generative growth

When the plant is growing too vegetative, the following measures will help to move the plantbalance towards a more generative growth:
1. Create a larger difference between day- and night temperature. Raise the temperature in the afternoon to stimulate the plant (up to 25°C when there is sufficient light available). Then lower the temperature towards 16-18°C in the pre-night. This change in temperature will stimulate generative development.
2. Lowering of the relative humidity. More ventilation and heating will lower the humidity and stimulate a more generative development of the plants. Do not lower the humidity below a level of 65% because this will risk poor pollination.
3. Removing of foliage. Besides the normal leave trimming at the bottom of the plant, a small leaf can be removed out of the head of the plant when the plant is too vegetative.
4. Less truss pruning. Allow more fruits to develop on the plant by keeping more flowers on the trusses. Prune at a later time when the fruits are small.
5. Increase of nutrient level in soil or substrate. A slightly higher E.C. will stimulate the generative development op the plants. Higher levels of Potassium (K ) will also have a positive effect on the fruit quality.

[JamesL]

3 foot barren bottom section- you correctly self diagnosed.
Weather. Excessive rain in that time period plus who knows what...
You won't get blossom clusters in that section, but you could always allow another sucker to grow.

[digsdirt]

Is there any possible hope that these long cluster-less sections may still grow some blossom clusters from the vines, despite the fact that there are already well developed blossoms further up?

No because you pruned them to only 2 stems.

You don't explain why you did that but unfortunately doing it sealed the deal for the plant. Sorry.

Dave

[squirrel789]

Thanks for the responses!

Unfortunately, that's kind of what I suspected concerning the weather. This is my first large container garden and I spaced the plants pretty darn tight, trying to integrate some SFG and vertical gardening principles. That's why I kept them to 2 vines each, and it has helped as they are growing well and have adequate airflow/no diseases yet (knocks on wood), but I didn't anticipate the really wet weather we've had would have such an effect on the number of blossoms or the fruit setting. I guess some years are just like that...

If they keep growing like they are, they will be very, very tall before it frosts, usually around the 3rd week of October here (all indeterminate vines). They will be much, much taller than the less-pruned ones I've grown in-ground, back when I had the land, and we will see about the yield. I'm sure it won't be as good as previous years, but hopefully the upper parts of the plants will produce enough fruit that this won't be that big of a deal. I just may need a ladder to pick them!

Unfortunately though, we've had rain for the last 2 days and a good chance it will rain at least some each day all the way up until this weekend. After that, things should dry out and we will be back to the usual 90+ sunny weather that is typical here is southwestern MO. I'm glad to hear that some posts suggest that I'm not completely to blame though I was afraid I had overlooked something important. Now if only I had a climate-controlled greenhouse

In fact, it has been so wet again recently that I found a slime mold forming and starting to climb up one of my cucumber vines last night. Those things appear FAST! I mean in a matter of hours! I wiped it all off the plant, and sprayed a little Safer Brand soap spray for the heck of it. I know they're supposedly harmless and impossible to get rid of, but I still didn't want it covering the leaves. So far it hasn't come back... I'll post a pic if anyone's interested, it was definitely not like anything I had ever seen.

Thanks for any and all responses, I learn more from each post. Best of luck with your gardens!

[squirrel789]

I read a thread by B54red just now concerning blossom drops and lack of fruit setting, using weekly TTF to help with the issue, despite what some may consider too much watering. We are having another intermittently rainy spell here that will last through this weekend. It should be hot and sunny for awhile after that though, if the forecasts hold true.

I specifically bought the TTF to help with blossom/fruit development, as that is it's intended purpose.

Does anyone have any thoughts or advice on using plenty of TTF on my plants, despite already being well watered, to encourage the blossoms that formed above the 3' mark as well as the few clusters below that?

Although there is an abnormally long distance between blossoms in that lower area, there are still some clusters there that look viable, and the blossoms on the upper regions aren't really doing much yet despite looking big and fully formed. Maybe I'm being impatient, but I am wondering if plenty of TTF is still a good idea for fruit setting and cluster development despite the fact that they are getting lots of rain already? I know the soil is saturated already, but what's the lesser of the two evils? More watering, or not enough of the nutrition for blossom/fruit development in the TTF?

If the soil is already well watered, couldn't I just exchange that rain water with some TTF fertilized water with lots of nutritional value designed for this purpose?

As soon as I add any water, the water that was already in the growing medium immediately starts draining out of the many holes in the bottom of the container. So, as I understand it, adding the fertilized water won't add any more water to the mix than what is already there anyway. Does this theory sound reasonable, or is this a bad idea?

Sorry for what looks like a ton of questions, but I guess they really all ask the same thing

Any thoughts would be very appreciated!

[zipcode]

How much sun are they getting? I find the amount of sun to be crucial in amount of flowers formed. Also if they didn't do too well when small, they tend to make flowers after more leaves than usual (for example an good growing Indian stripe will make flowers after 7 leaves, this year with a cloudy spring, they make it after 9-10).
That fertilizer seems pretty good for containers.
Also, if those flowers set, it's all good. They will make bigger tomatoes fi the plants are healthy. Maybe production will take a bit of a hit but not terribly so.
What varieties are you planting btw?

Edit: I see you said plenty of sun, that gets that out then. High air humidity will negatively affect pollination on many varieties however.
Also, black soil is not a good indication. I prefer something light brown. A cheapish ready to use potting soil is just plain peat moss but not old, you want the fibrous lighter coloured one.

[kurt]

I grow in plastic containers here in Florida,I have seen that when plants are young and have not filled the container(rootball)and if they are too wet(no oxygen for roots)it really slows them down.With the heavy rains we get it compounds the issue,let alone the heat factor as the sun heats up the moisture.I generally let the plant dry out to almost wilting(at that time) to aerate the roots.I did see your setup and my guess is the medium might be too wet.Something that large and contained would/should hopefully have at least a foot of irregular rock/stones in the bottom to keep a good drainfield so as to keep the medium moist but not mushy/muddy wet.You mentioned that when you add water it is running out that fast which might indicate a lot of water pressue built up in the container.Maybe dig a exploratory shaft hole and see the condition of soil (temp/ph levels)at a lower depth.

[drew51]

You can't fertilize to fruit more, well you can, but environment plays such a huge role. How hot is it? If over 85F few varieties fruit as pollen will not work well. Try root pouches to keep soil drier in the future.
Ironic as I'm having so many flowers this year, more than normal. It's going to be a great year for me as far as number of fruits. On most, a few are slow to grow, and I'm not sure why? The last week they picked up at last.
If the soil is very moist the worst thing you can do is add more water. Do not do that.
If you must fertilize try Tomato tone dry fertilizer. The Espoma products are awesome. Although the formula I think has changed for tomato tone? Try biotone to stimulate production. In the last few years I have experimented with mycorrhizae fungi and beneficial bacteria and results have been positive. It seems to help in extremes, and especially in containers. This school of thought of using dead soils and synthetic fertilizers is the wrong direction. I add compost to all my containers. I'm in zone 5b. I have no problems with flower clusters. I have been using plant tone this year, out of tomato tone.
Costoluto Fiorentino - If you look closely flowers are from top to bottom.

[Starlight]

Drew... Very nice looking tomatoes. Yours are prettier than mine. Wanna trade?

Sqiurrel... I don't know if you have read this thread or not, but there is a lot of good advice in it for growing in containers.

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=35134

These folks really know what they are talking about. I have been following their advice and for the first time ever I can say I have a crop of tomatoes and not just a few here and there.

I really don't know, but I wonder if maybe your container is too big. I read alot of what the container folks write, picking up little tidbits of knowledge here and there. Unless I have missed something I don't think I have read where any of the container folks are growing in that big of a container.

Maybe having a bunch more smaller containers would be better. That size container is going to hold a whole lot of water to my way of thinking. I'd get me a yard stick, wood and stick it down to the very bottom of your container and let it stay there for several hours and then pull it out and you'll be able to see exactly just how wet that soil is from where the moisture will absorb into the wood of the stick.

My plants had a lot of vegetative growth at first. Part, like what was mentioned above I think was due to the fact that we had so much rain and then blistering sun and to protect my babies from sun scald I had them under some shade cloth til I figured they would be strong enough to survive the blistering sun.

I had beautiful leaves and no blossoms til I started using the Tomato Tone Ray suggested. Then they exploded with blossoms. I didn't worry about just having all leaves at the bottom and no trusses because everybody said to keep the bottom couple of feet the leaves removed to prevent diseases. So I removed them.

Mine are on a schedule of 1 TB of Tomato Tone every two weeks , as I have smaller containers and have a lot of leaching of nutrients with watering every other day to everyday, depending on heat factor. Mine also get 1 TB of Epsom Salt every other week. I water 6 days a week with Miracle Grow at a 1,000 ppm and one day of just plain water to wash out salt build up. I use a home fertilizer injector that way MG is always the same amount and no worries about too much or too little.

It might help too , to know just what varieties you are growing. Almost everything I am growing is new to me. I have some plants that hit the 4' mark before they started making blossoms and now they going to town. It maybe that is the nature of those plants especially since I have seen folks pics and chat of tomatoes way over the 7' mark.

I sure hope everything works out ok for you and you get a bunch of tomatoes to grow.

[bjbebs]

Squirrel
I'm in zone 5 and you are probably in 6. We have both had a wet May and a deluge in the 2nd and 3rd weeks of June. I've had 8 inches in the last nine days.
When you first posted on your stock tank I thought 8 plants were a bit much.
You pruned to remedy the chances of overcrowding. In doing so you have altered what the plant naturally wants to do. And that is to make maters. Just my opinion.
Since our growing conditions have been similar this spring, let's compare.
Your container is using a store bought mix. Mine has horse manure, leaves and compost.
You have pruned, I have not. Your tank holds 8 plants, mine has 4.
The difference in varieties planted should not matter. All things being equal the biggest difference is in the soil. My plants are showing consistent fruit production.
I realize everyone does not have access to natural amendments. It's in the dirt, Squirrel.
Just emptied another 1/2 inch with more on the way. Can't wait for July.

[squirrel789]

Thank you so much for all the responses and advice. That's what I love about these forums is that since everyone does things a little differently, I can learn as much as I can about how all of you grow your tomatoes successfully, and hopefully start to see the similarities that really make a difference! Thank you for sharing your methods!

A few things to address though:

Zipcode - The humidity here is practically off the charts, but is pretty typical for SW MO. My previous in-ground gardens never really seemed to mind that much, but then again I had lots of plants in those gardens and didn't micro-analyze them as I do my very few plants I have now.

Kurt - I will test ph and temps towards the bottom, I didn't think to try it further down and all my ph samples were taken from the top 6" or so under the mulch. Thank you for the suggestion! My growing medium is definitely soaked thanks to the weather, however, I have been told many times that the gravel/rock layer (which I do have a small gravel layer) actually doesn't help with the drainage when using a medium with fine particles like the compost I used. It supposedly decreases the amount of root space available to the plant, from what I've read on here. I guess there are differing opinions on the rock idea, but thank you very much for the advice!

Drew- Thank you for the fertilizer recommendation, as I haven't tried Tomato Tone or Biotone, but hear great things. I have actually added good compost (over a third of the mix was compost). I have also added mycorrhizae and beneficial bacteria from the Texas Tomato Food (all organic ingredients except for the minerals which keep it from being OMRI certified). The weather was unseasonably cool early on, but the plants took off vegetatively when we hit the upper 80's/low 90's but now we are back to cooler temps (low to mid 80's) and lots of rain. Low to mid 90's forecasts all next week though! Based on the responses, the humidity and rainy late May/early June is likely what hurt the blossoms on the lower portion of the plant and the meager fruit set there, as the mix was staying too moist and I couldn't fertilize as I wanted to. Also, I used vermiculite, peat and compost, all of which hold moisture, so I am sure I am harboring too much water. Next year I think I will try a larger particle, faster draining medium (ie perlite vs vermiculite and less peat moss). Thank you for the suggestions and response! Those are some beautiful plants you are growing!

Starlight - Yet another suggestion for Tomato Tone, I will definitely check it out. As for the varieties, all are indeterminate and most are hybrids like I've grown before: Better Boy, Jet Star, Pink Girl, and Ultimate Opener, also I have an heirloom Cherokee Purple and Golden Jubilee (which really took awhile to get started - it was the only Bonnie plant from a big box store I bought). I am encouraged by the fact that many of your plants didn't blossom well until the 4' mark, but still began fruiting successfully later. That is almost exactly what is happening to mine. The upper parts seem to be producing much more blossoms above the 3' to 3.5' mark and the spacing is finally starting to look normal. Maybe there is hope yet! Now if only the blossoms will set fruit! As for height, I believe you are correct, if they keep growing like they are currently, I will need a ladder in a couple of weeks! I only wish I could water my plants myself to fertilize them and control the moisture levels, but Mother Nature seems intent on keeping them soaked for the time being Thanks!

bjbebs -The 8 plants were definitely too much. It was a bit of an experiment to incorporate some serious pruning and vertical growth/support ideas too see if I could maximize productivity in a smaller area. Obviously it is not going as well as hoped . I will definitely be cutting back on the number of plants per container next year, especially if this pattern of few blossoms/low fruit set continues. I am a believer in pruning, however, but I know everyone's got their own opinion on that However, I am not using a store-bought potting mix. I made it myself with a quality, light-colored peat moss as described above, well-aged compost from a reputable local nursery that makes their own, and coarse vermiculite to help hold soil structure. Unfortunately no manure, but I should have some worm castings from my little worm farm in a few weeks and I plan to brew up some tea and add it. Hopefully it will help. I will play with my growing medium next year for sure though. All the components I used are moisture retentive (compost, peat and coarse vermiculite). I thought I'd want that moisture-retentive characteristic where I live as usually drought is far more of an issue than too much rain. It's just been an unusually wet summer so far I guess. Like you said, I too am looking forward to later in the summer as we always have lots of sun and little rain, so I think it will dry things out to a level where I can control the moisture. This will allow me to water with a complete fertilizer like the TTF, the worm casting brew, or perhaps try the Tomato Tone suggested. Hopefully this will help get these plants back on track. Thanks for your opinions, advice and all the info!

Thank you all so much for your responses. I am learning so much reading all the opinions (differing or otherwise) and methods you use to make your tomatoes a success. I hope you all have a bumper crop of delicious tomatoes this year!

[bjbebs]

Squirrel
I stand corrected on your container soil mix.
Let me clarify one point. I don't consider horse manure to be a fertilizer in and of itself.
But when incorporated with other natural additives the soil structure will feed your plants.
Worm castings will provide a good source of N. I don't think you are doing anything wrong and for sure your determination will bring you success.
Keep asking questions. Those of us who chime in don't have all the answers we just want to help. I for one love to get shot down. It makes me think.
Oh, it's raining again.

[squirrel789]

Originally Posted by bjbebs

Squirrel
I stand corrected on your container soil mix.
Let me clarify one point. I don't consider horse manure to be a fertilizer in and of itself.
But when incorporated with other natural additives the soil structure will feed your plants.
Worm castings will provide a good source of N. I don't think you are doing anything wrong and for sure your determination will bring you success.
Keep asking questions. Those of us who chime in don't have all the answers we just want to help. I for one love to get shot down. It makes me think.
Oh, it's raining again.

My dad and I always used cow manure in the big, farm tomato patch and we had great success with the tomatoes, so I hear you on that point for sure! Thanks for the clarification too, as I am trying to learn all about the many different things tomatoes need to thrive, and the bewildering assortment of sources they can come from. As for the rain, I think this the first year in awhile I am actually cursing it, instead of praying for even just a little. Then again, the summer is really just getting started

Thank you for adding to the conversation! I really mean it when I say I appreciate any and all advice, criticism, and responses, and I truly hope I didn't come across as rude or defensive in my reply. There so many ways people have success, I'd love to hear/see them all. So, please keep the critiques and responses coming! I hope I can then decide on the changes I want to make next year, learning through trial and plenty of error, but every response or criticism helps me understand growing tomatoes better and better. I know still have a LOT to learn though! I try to chime in as well whenever I can. If nothing else, I hope others can learn from my mistakes or (hopefully) successes.

I hope you and others will continue to offer your point of view and methods, and no worries, I will definitely keep asking a lot of questions!

In fact, I've already got another coming: I'll post some pics I took today of some of my lower to middle blossom clusters that formed during the initial growth spurt after the cool, rainy weeks following planting (they are Jet Star, better boy, and Ultimate Opener). There are more developed flower clusters further up that look better, but I wonder if the the ones in the pics could possibly still be viable or if there looks to be an obvious cause for why they didn't set, or even fully bloom in some cases? (pics to follow shortly)

I have never had the opportunity to micro-manage my own tomato garden before and it's fascinating (and working mostly from home, I sneak out there a lot).

And yes, it's raining here again too

[squirrel789]

Here are the pics I said I'd post of the mostly unsuccessful blossoms on the lower parts of the plants, what wasted potential...

Pic 1 appears to have set only one fruit out of several flowers. Wishful thinking has me hoping I'm just being impatient, but these clusters are quite low on the plant and I would have thought they would have set fruit by now if they were going to.

Pics 2 and 3 show a cluster (there are several of these on different plants) that have appear to have grown little under-developed buds after the initial flowers. Might these eventually be able to produce fruit?

Pic 4 appears to be yet another un-pollinated cluster.

Pic 5 is a blossom cluster very low on the plant that looks like it never even really opened up and bloomed, although the clusters much further up are much more open/advanced. Any hope here?

Are these symptoms typical for the wet weather and moisture-retentive growing medium I put together as discussed in the posts above, or is it indicative of some other obvious problem that I am simply not aware of and overlooking? For what it's worth, when it's not raining and overcast all the time, they do get at least 8 hours of full sun.

As I have said, I have never had the opportunity to scrutinize my plants closely and watch them in each stage of growth until this year, as now they're in my own back yard and I can peek at them as much I want. It's fascinating to watch and I've become quite obsessed with it

Either way, it looks like it will be quite a bit longer before I can satisfy my craving for that simple tomato sandwich (my favorite summer treat!) I have been reading so much about in another thread.

Thanks again to all who have taken the time to respond and post whatever opinions or insights you might have. As always, I appreciate this community's generosity and kindness, especially for those of us just getting started in container gardening. I've learned so much (but am still ignorant of so many tomato behaviors/strategies) and I hope perhaps another newbie container gardener can learn from this too.

Thanks, and a healthy harvest to everyone!