drainage design for winter outdoors container

[bower]

I've been growing out garlic bulbils to increase my stock - planted in containers in october, mulched and wintered outdoors. I have one large flat that works really well, because it drains really well. Last year I added a couple of small tubs with drill holes in the bottom, shown below.
These tubs didn't drain as well as I expected.
We had heavy rains at several times when the soil was frozen, and ended up with standing water on top of the soil in the less than optimally drained containers.

So, looking at the containers, I can see that I could improve the drainage by drilling holes in the corners and closer to the edge on the sides... Also there's the option of putting some holes in the sides near the bottom.

I'm looking for advice, what is the best design to drain these tubs or other square or rectangular containers, so the rain will run out even if the soil is frozen...

[Zenbaas]

Originally Posted by bower

I've been growing out garlic bulbils to increase my stock - planted in containers in october, mulched and wintered outdoors. I have one large flat that works really well, because it drains really well. Last year I added a couple of small tubs with drill holes in the bottom, shown below.
These tubs didn't drain as well as I expected.
We had heavy rains at several times when the soil was frozen, and ended up with standing water on top of the soil in the less than optimally drained containers.

So, looking at the containers, I can see that I could improve the drainage by drilling holes in the corners and closer to the edge on the sides... Also there's the option of putting some holes in the sides near the bottom.

I'm looking for advice, what is the best design to drain these tubs or other square or rectangular containers, so the rain will run out even if the soil is frozen...

That seems to be quite the problem to have. Frozen soil will surely equal frozen water as well...? Only thing I can think of (and never having had this problem myself)is to have a "tube" of PVC running from the top of the container to the bottom with holes drilled into the sides of it to allow the water to still drain to the bottom and out of the container irrespective if the soil is frozen and thus not allowing proper water drainage.

I would probably have two or three of these small PVC pipes(conduit even) in the container. I don;t know if this would be a viable solution but it should prevent water from standing stagnant on top of the soil.

[Worth1]

You have two easy options.
Keep the soil mounded up higher than the edges of the tubes in the middle and you will only have a wee frozen line at the edge.
Run heat tape/trace in the soil from one (insulated tub) to the next and the soil wont freeze.

Worth

[Zenbaas]

That's another idea I've seen used as worth mentions. I've seen people who cut out the inside of the lid and then make a mound on top of the container then place a black plastic bag on top of the mound and use the outer potion of the lid to secure the bag in place. They make holes for the plants of course and the plastic keeps out excessive water from the get go.

I've never done this myself but I've seen many here do that for their SWC when growing tomatoes.

[bower]

Thanks guys.

The soil freezing is not a problem for garlic - in fact they need the cold season to do well afaik. The drainage issue is because of our wierd and wonderful climate. Frozen one day... soaked the next... then frozen again for a spell, and so on for months on end.

As I mentioned, the large flat has never a problem draining, I need to empty it to change the soil and then I'll look at the drainage pattern but afaik it has no holes in the middle of the bottom at all, just some really big ones on the corner/sides.

Trying to think this through.. possibly the bottom drain holes may be blocked by the frozen soil? So holes in the sides (at the bottom of course) would be more likely to let water flow out?
Then again, I don't know whether the size of a hole makes a difference too. Some pots have fewer holes but they are bigger ones. How important is the size of hole then... Or am I imagining that there's a sensible answer to this question.... google turned up nothing at all, on drainage design for containers.

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by bower

Thanks guys.

The soil freezing is not a problem for garlic - in fact they need the cold season to do well afaik. The drainage issue is because of our wierd and wonderful climate. Frozen one day... soaked the next... then frozen again for a spell, and so on for months on end.

As I mentioned, the large flat has never a problem draining, I need to empty it to change the soil and then I'll look at the drainage pattern but afaik it has no holes in the middle of the bottom at all, just some really big ones on the corner/sides.

Trying to think this through.. possibly the bottom drain holes may be blocked by the frozen soil? So holes in the sides (at the bottom of course) would be more likely to let water flow out?
Then again, I don't know whether the size of a hole makes a difference too. Some pots have fewer holes but they are bigger ones. How important is the size of hole then... Or am I imagining that there's a sensible answer to this question.... google turned up nothing at all, on drainage design for containers.

Bower I take your climate into consideration.
I have known several people that live where you live and know quite a bit about it.
Even the fact it isn't called New Found Land.
If you use the heat trace/tape in the right place it wont keep the soil warm and it wont be on all of the time.
Mine comes on automatically.
Does the container freeze solid?
You might think about a drain pipe running from the surface right through to the bottom and out.
It can be connected to the bottom with what they call a box connector or just set there with a PVC to pipe thread adapter it isn't going anywhere.


Worth

[bower]

Yes, all the sundry containers froze solid last winter. I had quite a few miscellaneous containers that were left in the yard, they all froze solid and were still frozen when I tried to empty them in the spring. None of them are "planters" they are all repurposed tubs of one kind or another.

However the only ones that had standing water on top of the frozen soil were these small white ones, and an old washtub which is only drained by the old drain hole in the middle.

These tubs are too small for pipes and other such things.
I have no resources for heat tape or anything of the kind. It must be a simple solution.

I just want to know where to make the holes, so these things can be used again for my garlic bulbils. Holes are, basically, free for the making.

[Zenbaas]

Originally Posted by bower

Yes, all the sundry containers froze solid last winter. I had quite a few miscellaneous containers that were left in the yard, they all froze solid and were still frozen when I tried to empty them in the spring. None of them are "planters" they are all repurposed tubs of one kind or another.

However the only ones that had standing water on top of the frozen soil were these small white ones, and an old washtub which is only drained by the old drain hole in the middle.

These tubs are too small for pipes and other such things.
I have no resources for heat tape or anything of the kind. It must be a simple solution.

I just want to know where to make the holes, so these things can be used again for my garlic bulbils. Holes are, basically, free for the making.

The PVC conduit pipe I am referring to is only maybe an inch(20mm) wide...? You get polypipe or irrigation pipe in similar sizes. They would literally take up almost no space at all.

[Worth1]

What is different than the ones that drained?

the holes are free so put some along the sides on the bottom.
I still think the tubs are big enough for one 1/2 inch pipe going from the surface of the soil to the bottom.

How big are these things they look huge.

Worth

[Zenbaas]

Originally Posted by Worth1

What is different than the ones that drained?

the holes are free so put some along the sides on the bottom.
I still think the tubs are big enough for one 1/2 inch pipe going from the surface of the soil to the bottom.

How big are these things they look huge.

Worth

[bower]

Originally Posted by Zenbaas

They are foolishly tiny. The short end is little more than a foot.
For reference the black container on the left is a standard sized cat box. I'm thinking of drilling a couple of those to use for bulbils this winter as well... if I can do it right.

The bulbils are planted pretty densely spaced about an inch apart, so indeed the tube would not take a huge amount of space. This would take care of water on top, but it won't stop the soil from being soggy up to soil level, though.
As for the other containers, any day now I'll be emptying out a load of them to make a new bed for my garlic. Planning a greenhouse purge and complete change of soil. So once they are ulpside down I'll be able to tell you what worked or didn't.

One thing I noticed in a spare tub, is that the bottom is not flat entirely, whereas the white ones that didn't drain are totally flat bottomed.

I have a minor feeling of doom, that I'll drill a bunch more holes in these things on bottom and sides, and then the bottom will drop right out of em. I mean, if there's a wrong way, probably I'll be doing that first...

[Worth1]

Drill a bunch of holes in the drain pipe I spoke of to perforate it from top to bottom like a sewer lateral line.
This should let the water drain from all of the soil.

Worth

[bower]

Originally Posted by Worth1

Drill a bunch of holes in the drain pipe I spoke of to perforate it from top to bottom like a sewer lateral line.
This should let the water drain from all of the soil.

Worth

Now we're talkin... I think that could work.

[Zenbaas]

Originally Posted by Worth1

Drill a bunch of holes in the drain pipe I spoke of to perforate it from top to bottom like a sewer lateral line.
This should let the water drain from all of the soil.

Worth

Originally Posted by bower

Now we're talkin... I think that could work.

Originally Posted by Zenbaas

That seems to be quite the problem to have. Frozen soil will surely equal frozen water as well...? Only thing I can think of (and never having had this problem myself)is to have a "tube" of PVC running from the top of the container to the bottom with holes drilled into the sides of it to allow the water to still drain to the bottom and out of the container irrespective if the soil is frozen and thus not allowing proper water drainage.

I would probably have two or three of these small PVC pipes(conduit even) in the container. I don;t know if this would be a viable solution but it should prevent water from standing stagnant on top of the soil.

Wait wait wait.... That has been my suggestion since the second post in this thread

[bower]

Originally Posted by Zenbaas

Wait wait wait.... That has been my suggestion since the second post in this thread

Right you are! I totally missed that.