to till or not to till???

[pete]

I have beds with winter rye planted in them that I have mowed a couple of times. The soil underneath the rye is very rich. I have tilled a few beds and was wondering if I could just plant in the rye without the work of tilling?? Does anyone plant in a cover crop without tilling?

How do you think the tilled vs not tilled will do? I killed a lot of worms tilling and did not like doing that.


Pete

[eddie46]

Hi Pete,

I think you are defeating the purpose of planting winter rye if you don't till the green manure in.

Ed

[outsiders71]

I planted a rye/vetch mix last year and did not till in anything. Tilling is unnecessary.

You are supposed to let the Winter Rye grow until about May when it starts to flower. When you see the flowers formed and almost open, that is when you cut it down. Otherwise it will just keep growing back. I took an electric hedge and cut the rye as close to the ground. They rye at this point was about 4' tall so it made great mulch. I just planted into the stubble and mulched with the rye/vetch I chopped down.

Is there a reason you decided to cut it down so early? If you're getting ready to plant out, just keep cutting it as low as possible and it will eventually die out.

[habitat_gardener]

And I think tilling defeats the purpose of soil building! I have a garden, not a farm, but I don't till. You're right, tilling kills earthworms and disrupts the fungal mat and destroys soil structure.

ATTRA used to have lots of useful publications on cover crops and no-till. Here's the most recent newsletter
http://www.attra.org/newsletter/attranews_0310.html
in which I learned that rye can suppress weeds for 1-2 months if cut and left on the soil, but loses that weed-suppression function if tilled in.

[dustdevil]

[quote=habitat_gardener;165170]And I think tilling defeats the purpose of soil building!quote]
If you have heavy soil, plowing and tilling help you work cover crops into the soil that help make it more friable...improves texture. There are thousands of different soil types and the soil YOU have determines what you should or shouldn't do. No till may be great in Napa Valley, but won't work with deadpan soil.

[outsiders71]

Tilling would do nothing but move the good layer of topsoil that he just created with his cover crop and put it a foot under, moving the clay to the surface. You can improve your soil without tilling it. I stopped tilling after the one summer I tilled and couldn't work the soil anymore. It literally turned my soil into concrete, I couldn't get at it with a shovel if it was dry. The improvements I saw after one year of cover cropping and mulching changed my views on tilling forever. Tilling NEVER brought my soil any improvements, though it did feel good to do (placebo kind of effect).

[TZ-OH6]

Farmland tilling and garden tilling are usually two very different things. Farmland gets little organic input other than crop residue and does not get mulch over top of it to preserve moisture/promote microbial growth. Under common garden conditions the fungi grow back within days, and earthworms are not needed to turn the soil because you have just done that with the tiller/shovel. They are just hanging around eating the compost out of the soil and converting the nitrogen into worm meat.

[mensplace]

Had I not tilled in a full round bale of hay, a truckload of manures, plenty of compost, gypsum, limestone and other amendments over the course of fall, winter and spring, I would still have the same heavy, compacted, poorly draining Georgia red clay and deeply rooted Bermuda grass that is even difficult to kill with Roundup. Part of the issue is what type of soil you have as well as in knowing when and how to till. The actual fact is that after beginning last fall I now have plenty of well chopped and integrated organic matter, well blended minerals, and earthworms that I did not have before. Now, instead of a layer of topsoil or compost on top of hardpan clay, I have soil that is rich, aerated, and full of life down to a foot and a half.. and that is a far better base upon which to build up. Acouple of keys with clay is to never touch the soil or even walk in it when the least bit moist and not to keep tilling until the soil is powdered.

[creister]

I grow wheat/vetch cover crop every winter. I have never tilled it. Use it as part of the mulch layer. I usually add shredded leaves on top to finish the mulch. I have never had any problems with it being incorporated into the soil. It always disappears. I used to till, and have seen no advantage to it. This is my 5th year of no till, and plants seem to grow and produce just fine. I would not till. If you let your rye grow to as late as possible, then cut as low as possible, shouldn't grow back. Good luck.

[duajones]

Tilling in compost to my clay soil several times over the past 4 years has greatly improved my soil. Tilling when the soil is to wet will definitely ruin the composition of the soil.
When I first started in the fall of 2006, I saw very few worms. I wasnt able to till this fall or spring as the ground was just too wet. But at plant out, there were worms in every hole. Anywhere from 3 to 6. I till in the pine bark mulch in the fall and sometimes add leaves and some coffee grounds from starbucks, then I do a light till a couple of weeks before planting in the spring. I may have reached a point where tilling wont improve things much more but I feel confident in what I have achieved by tilling so far

[pete]

thanks for all the input!!! I will do an experiment and see if there is any significant difference in the two ways of planting. Hopefully they both work well!!!

pete

[outsiders71]

Check out Steve Groff's website:

http://www.cedarmeadowfarm.com/

He grows a farm on sustainable principles, including no-tilling. I've talked to him via email and have bought seed from him as well. He's very knowledgeable about cover crops.

[mensplace]

Not trying to drag this out, but it seems that tilling or not tilling is essentially just a tool or practice just like many others that must be approached and used after considering all of the facts of each particular situation. I'm reminded of a book by one soil management consultant who observed the same re how folks approached addig fertilizers and amendments to huge tracts of land, when, in fact, rather like micro-climates, there were many different sectors of soil types that would only be discovered after developing a grid and testing in each sector. That led to many different soil needs, not just one blend of amendments and fertilizers though all on the same farm.
Most of us have different soils, different levels of humus, varying levels of moisture, different grasses, different drainage issues, and gardens that have been worked for different lengths of time. I well remember studying and attending several hands on seminars over the years on the various theories of composting, double digging and sustainable farming. Talk about debate. Some insist upon adding copper poles to draw energy, some bury herb blends for a specific number of day during the light of the correct moon phase to create teas, some follow intensive gardening approaches, while many are still led by NPK approaches. Many have even tried no-till and ultimately returned to other methods after a few years. There is no single magical approach that addresses all needs all the time other than knowing your own soil, conditions, and overall methodology.
Some approach the soil as liitle more than a supprt structure to hold the plant while providing nutrients similar to a hydroponic system. Others lean towards a confidence that tending to life in the soil as a living, balanced system with needs of its own that will then support plant life if properly balanced. What works in the heat, humidity, virus laden, non draining clay of a new garden in GA may be somewhat different that an established garden in a moderate climate with several feet of humus rich top soil. If anything, we have seen here that YOU have to know YOUR soil and conditions. I still have plenty of folks stop by here who had no idea that you even had to do anything other than dig a hole and throw a tomato plant on top. Many begin with, "Whut's a hairloom? Ya have sum uh them BIG BOYS?".

[Barbee]

Pete,

I have used both methods and like them both, depending on the situation. I think a side by side comparison would be fun to do and I hope you post your results if you decide to try it.

I am at the point now where I till lightly each spring to work in amendments and knock back weeds. I see a few worms killed, but I see a few worms killed every time I dig in a flowerbed or garden around here. If you time your tilling for mid day and don't till too deep, you won't see much worm damage. At least that's been my experience. Once I plant my tomatoes, I lay down newspaper inside the cage and a layer of straw over top. That keeps me from having to weed inside the cages...a job I hate. It also helps hold moisture in during a dry year..since I don't water my tomatoes at all after the initial watering. I then lightly till periodically during the season between the cages to keep the weeds in check.

I love to grow tomatoes but I don't want to be a slave to gardening chores. I have yet to find a mulch other than newspaper that supresses weeds well enough not to make me be out there all the time pulling weeds. My tomato patch is just too big to cover the entire thing with newspaper so this is the way I have found that works best for me.

[tjg911]

the old till vs no till argument. it's like ketchup on eggs or not, dems vs republicans!

i see tilling as a good way to incorporate leaves and every 4 or 5 years manure into my soil. by fall the garden is hard packed, come next spring it'd be hard for roots to get thru the compaction. if i had established raised beds then i would not till but i have 1200 sq ft and i'm not hand digging that.
.
i don't by that tilling destroys soil structure and kills earthworms. my garden is extremely productive. nature can over come anything we do, i don't see tilling as being able to destroy your soil, all the worms are still there and all the bacterial is still there just mixed around (with shredded leaves and manure).

but that's my opinion and no doubts many will disagree. to them i say then don't till. for me it works.

tom