Horse Manure Questions

[frogwash]

Greetings. I was fortunate enough to able to acquire a truckload of horse poop and can get more if this isn't enough for my limited gardenning space.



My plan was to spread this out now over the left over straw that i had been using for mulch on my 2010 tomatoes. I do not have any room to make a pile to compost it so I figured that if I just layer this over the straw that by the time spring rolls around they will both be decently decomposed enough that i can just mix it up in my soil so everything will be good & nutritious for next years tomatoes. It stays relatively warm here in SoCal, zone 8b, so it oughta work by my guess. Kind of a lo-layer lasagna method. I have a couple of questions though. The first is: is there anything else that I really should be adding to this so as to have my soil ready next year?

The other question regards the manure itself. It came from shovelling out horse stalls, but they seem to be using shredded paper for the stalls rather than hay or something similar. I know that paper composts/decomposes and is also used for mulch so I'm hoping shredded paper horse manure stall mix will also work. This can't be the only horse place that uses this. Has anyone else here used this kind of stuff? Are my assumptions correct or do I need to get rid of this and go find some proper horse poop.

Here is a close-up:



Thank you all again for your help and advice.

[tam91]

Horses are not bed on hay - they eat hay. They are bedded on either straw, or more commonly shavings (wood shavings). Yours looks like the shavings.

That's the kind of horse manure I've used, although the guy brings me older, already composted stuff. Seems to work quite well.

The only downside - weeds. LOTS of weeds. I guess from whatever the horses eat, the weeds are in the manure - and sprout like crazy. Hay and/or straw seem to grow, and are interesting to get rid of.

[tjg911]

just look out if the bulk of that crap is newspaper or wood shavings or saw dust they all are carbon. i got way more saw dust than manure last fall in the horse manure and that robs the plants of nitrogen as the nitrogen in the soil is used to break down the carbon. i will never use horse manure again because it's not all manure like cow manure. if i want nitrogen and i get a truck load of carbon then not only did i not get what i wanted, i did not get what i needed but i got screwed as some of my crops did poorly this year and i can only attribute it to excessive carbon in my soil. if possible i'd get some cow or sheep manure to mix into that. also horses eat hay and they do not digest it well and as a result the weed seed is in the manure.

also i'd till it in immediately. nitrogen dissipates into the air and you loose it when it sits out in the open. by tilling it in you allow the soil microbes to break it all down and i'd suspect retain more of the nitrogen than allowing it to sit on top of the soil. even tilled in, i've read nitrogen breaks down quickly.

tom

[frogwash]

well, there's definitely paper in it and so far that's all i've got. I'll see what I else i can get to mix in with with it. would alfalfa pellets work or would i be better off adding that just prior to planting. Thanks again.

[frogwash]

p.s. what's wrong with carbon, be it from wood chips and/or paper?

[tjg911]

alfalfa is high in nitrogen but i have never used it, cow manure or chicken litter (very high in nitrogen) to me seems better if you can get it.

as i stated carbon needs nitrogen to decompose so if there is not enough manure to provide the nitrogen then the carbon will try to take it from the soil. this will deprive your plants of the nitrogen they need. no nitrogen no green growth. too much nitrogen all green growth and no fruits or vegetables, balance is required. want to discuss why i harvested 7 pounds of onions vs my normal 70 pounds and the 7 pounds are 1/4 to 1/3 normal size? how about my lack of pole beans or peppers? my broccoli didn't exactly break records for yields either. these are problems i never had until this season.

tom

[Worth1]

Here is my 2 cents worth.
Tom is right.
Anything in horse manure that doesn't break down will need nitrogen to break it down.
You must compost this type of manure before you put it on the garden or you will have weeds.
The paper may contain harmful chemicals that you dont want in the garden.

If you mess with horse manure you need to get a tetanus shot. A friends dad got a small thorn in his foot from a barnyard they cut his foot off, lower leg off, upper leg off, then he died a horrible death.
If you haven't had a shot lately then please get one.

A better option would be to plant crimson clover or red clover in the garden and till it up just before it goes to bloom.
This method will put 100 pounds of nitrogen into the soil per acre.
The seeds are cheap about $1.26 per pound and I Just bought 10 pounds of the stuff.
Chicken or rabbit manure would be a better choice in my book.
My 2 cents worth,
Worth

[greyghost]

I've used that type of bedding before-it's small pieces of cardboard/thin
printed cardboard (type used in a cereal box). I discontinued using it
(prefer a very fine wood shaving/sawdust product) as it wasn't especially absorbent, was expensive and blew around easily. It looks like
it's fresh from a stall-no composting at all. I'd probably compost it in a pile for a year before using it in the garden, adding grass clippings, other
green waste. I see a hay stem in it-it depends on the "cutting" of hay
whether it'll be loaded with hay seeds; 1st cutting (usually inexpensive) may be loaded with hay seed heads-later cuttings more leafy; some hay may be contaminated with weeds also. These seeds pass through the digestive system of a horse-even sunflower seeds-we feed small amounts of whole sunflowers-they'll sprout in manure. Some straw bedding also has
wheat or oat seeds. There is a thread that mentions the use of some of
the newer pasture herbicides that results in a long lasting contamination.
I don't think these are in widespread use but it's not impossible. Buttercup, for instance, requires one of these types of herbicides to eradicate. Tomatoes are particularly vulnerable to the smallest amounts
of these chemicals.

Just a few things to think about-I do use composted manure in our gardens, much more for corn, beans-far less for the tomatoes. I'm more likely to add a small amount of horse manure to my compost tumblers that I'll eventually use in the garden. Most manure (we pick up from pastures
daily) is composted in large bins for 2 or 3 years along with urine-saturated fine shavings. (I only have a couple of old-timers left.) Your wheel barrow full of stall waste has so much of the cardboard bedding compared to the amount of manure, I'd add a lot of green waste, clippings, alfalfa pellets, etc.

As far as the "print" on the cardboard, I'll let others express their opinions
on that. I probably would think the inks would pose no threat but don't
really know. And, yes, other animals, humans exposed to manure should
have tentanus shots.

[frogwash]

Anyhow, since this is what I have, I'm gonna go ahead and use it. Also, excepting for the terrible pesticide issue one Tomatovillan had, the majority of the posts that i found here at TV using the search engine were favorable towards horse poop--both fresh and composted. It's a mild winter climate here so if I get weeds, I'll just pull them or take care of one way or the other. If I do need more nitrogen or other things to be done to my soil, I'll add what I need as I have plenty of time to fix or add stuff (5 months or so) until I'll be planting out the 2011 models.

Thanks again for your input!

p.s. I actually got a tetanus shot (and 4 stitches) just last Tuesday when my Boston Terrier accidentally nipped me.

[greyghost]

Oh, that looks like it hurt!! Didn't mean to sound negative about horse
manure-I actually love it. If you want to use the stuff as it is, I think
if you're able to work it into the soil, especially if you can rototill, it'll
break down over the winter. Whether or not you'll need higher nitrogen
because of the high paper content, you can find out in the spring.
Also, the weed seed content will vary depending on the hay fed to
the horse-also mature weed seeds ingested. Our pastures don't have
a lot of weeds and I never buy a first cutting so I don't feel there's a lot
of weeds as a result of the manure I use. For our corn/melon garden, it's
applied heavily late summer/early fall and rototilled in several times as
early in spring as we can do it. If I stick an extra tomato plant there,
I'm more apt to see blossom end rot. Since we have to fence for deer,
we grow toms in alternate fenced gardens and on those, I only use
well composted materials. In fact, I think it well deserves it's name
of black gold.

We've had 2,4d overspray damage from neighbor's yard but on seaching
here, I found the threads where people have had damage from the newer
pasture herbicides. It's not a threat I'd been aware of until I read that
thread but I'm glad I'm aware of it. Since these herbicides persist for
years (unlike the temporary 2,4d damage), I've started to ask hay suppliers (especially grass only hay-I'm not so sure alfalfa could stand
up to this herbicide) if they use an herbicide being that tomatoes are
so sensitive to it. I think the damage I read about happened in MD and
we're in SE PA. Someone had a suggestion that suspect hay or straw
can be soaked, the water then poured on a sacrifice plant to see if it
develops the typical herbicide curl. I intend to use straw for mulch in
the tomato bed, never had a problem before but I just may start checking it before I use it. That said, there's always oat or wheat seed in straw
but it's easily knocked out with a hoe-the benefits of the mulch will far
outweigh any weed problem from it.

Just some things to consider-good luck with it--I keep looking at that
photo and I'll bet the person who pays for the bedding isn't the same
one that cleans the stalls.

[frogwash]

Originally Posted by greyghost

Just some things to consider-good luck with it--I keep looking at that
photo and I'll bet the person who pays for the bedding isn't the same
one that cleans the stalls.

You are definitely correct! Though, what makes you say that? Is it a sign of cheapness? The stall person shovelled it into a tractor and dumped a couple scoops into my truck. Even though the poop was "free" I tipped the guy who did the work $20. I guess I need to learn some more on good manure vs the not so good.


Thank you so much for all this info! Now I don't feel so bad. My "plot" is only about 3 1/2' by about the length of my mobile home, approx 60' (there is an area where it gets wider but it's pretty full of my Susan's plants and flowers, etc.; so roto-tilling won't work all that well. My plan is put a bunch of what I can (leaves, better manure & ???) let it go for a few months on top and then work/fork it in in Jan or Feb, then hopefully plant out in late March or early April depending on how the wacky weather goes this coming year.

The earlier posts kind of made me feel that putting this out was a huge mistake, but your info makes me feel much better. Thanks again for the time you took and may you have a wonderful 2011!

p.s. the novacaine shots & stitches hurt a lot more than the actual nip. it's amazing how much a dual split lip bleeds.

[Sherry_AK]

Ouch! Good thing that was an accident!

I use tons (literally) of horse poo here. I always compost it first because of the weeds. The horse poo I get usually comes equipped with wood shavings, but we also get bird poo (chicken, duck, etc.) that comes with paper. It all breaks down, but big gobs of paper are a little hard to work with. Yours looks well distributed, so you shouldn't have a problem.

Good luck with your garden and good luck with your lip!!!

[feldon30]

Looks like your Boston Terror tried to gnaw your face off. Ouch.

As for the horse pucky, I think you'll be ok. It's October. If you compost it until February in a nice neat pile, it should be good-to-go by then.

[greyghost]

Frogwash, not trying to imply anyone is cheap. When I clean a stall, all
manure and only the wet soiled bedding comes out. I found when my daughters were teenagers and did the cleaning, they weren't particularily
careful when removing bedding-a lot more than the soiled bedding was
removed. One daughter has her own barn now and she still is wasteful
with bedding while I take a couple of minutes longer and conserve-saves
me a few $$. I still spend almost as much on bedding as I do feed and
horses aren't stalled for long periods. (It was just a joke)

[frogwash]

Originally Posted by greyghost

Frogwash, not trying to imply anyone is cheap. When I clean a stall, all
manure and only the wet soiled bedding comes out. I found when my daughters were teenagers and did the cleaning, they weren't particularily
careful when removing bedding-a lot more than the soiled bedding was
removed. One daughter has her own barn now and she still is wasteful
with bedding while I take a couple of minutes longer and conserve-saves
me a few $$. I still spend almost as much on bedding as I do feed and
horses aren't stalled for long periods. (It was just a joke)

They might be doing ok on cleaning the stall, it was all wet when I first got it. The pic was how it looked after it was in my truck for a few days (my days off vary). It all seemed wet too when I shoveled it out yesterday.