Dwarfs and the endless procession of blossom drop

[z_willus_d]

Hello, I'm looking for insight. Several months ago, I started an indoor winter garden made up of all New Dwarf varieties: Rosella Purple, Mr. Snow, Summertime Gold, Summertime Green, Beryl Beauty, and Tasmanian Chocolate -- 12 plants in total, housed in pairs in Raybo's 18 Gallon InnTainers. Things started out well, and after a little over a month after transplanting up to the InnTainers, I had several fruit set on the Rosella Purple, Summertime Gold, Beryl Beauty and the Tasmanian. Temps started to cool in the garage (hitting lows around 50F at the coolest part of the nights) , and I entered a 2 month phase where no more fruit set and I had literally 100+ blossoms drop. I'm not sure if the temperature can be blamed for the dropped blossoms, but to be safe I added an oil-filled heater to the garage and along with the requisite increase in my electricity bills, the temperature also increased to a range of 60-80F 24-7. I also added small 50W aquarium heaters to the water reservoir of the InnTainers. Things are nice and toasty now.

So it had been over two months since a fruit had set, and then I got a couple fruits to set on the four Rosella Purple plants, but no other of the plants have set a fruit in months. Every day I recover 10 sometimes 20 dropped blossoms from the grow area and below the plants on the soil. In general, the plants look amazingly healthy, robust, loaded with flowers (what's left before they drop), and in all apparent ways, save one, seem to be perfectly fine.

Recently, I noticed that some of the lower leaves had contracted what looks like a drying mildew or fungus. The branches with those leaves fall off and the problem is spreading upwards slowly. The humidity used to be on the low side, so I was running a humidifier to bring it up to around 40%, but for the past month or so humidity has been 50-65%. The space between plants has reduced to less than zero as they've filled out, so with the humidity and lack of room to spread, I'm not surprised with the fungus/mildew issues. I've sprayed Actinovate and when that failed to help, I applied Daconil. So, I'm in a battle with that problem. I run an oscillating fan 24 hours on a low setting to try and keep a breeze running through the plants.

As for what I've filled my InnTainer containers with, I'm using the same mix that Ray Newstead (Raybo) has tested and employed with great success (over 50 tomatoes on one Mano plant!). It's a mix of Perlite, Sunshine #4, and decorative mirco bark with a cup of dolomite lime, a about a cup of tomato tone in a strip, some epsom salts and, in my case (not Ray's), trace amount of homemade worm-castings. After first transplant, I used a dilute amount of Tiger Bloom with each watering (about once a week), but I cut that out after the first sign of blossom drop. Maybe three applications with the water in total. I also spread 1/2 tsp per plant of Calcium nitrate crystals and watered in from above. That was long ago as well. Since then, no fertilizers added. Ok, well almost none. I did a foliar spray of Actinovate and kelp extract. A couple weeks back, I did a soil drench with Great White Myco, Roots Excelurator, MycoGrow, Biota, and Actinovate. That added no Nitrogen, but was meant to address the fungus problem and help boost the root system, etc.
I have an enthusiast grade pH meter, and it indicates the pH in the Tainers ranges between 5.6 and 6.6 depending on the Tainer and my measurement. It is very curious that the two tainers that measured at 6.33 and 6.56 happen to contain the four Rosella Purple plants that seem to be doing best. On the other hand, Mr. Snow plants that haven't set a single fruit are in the lower pH bins at 5.61 and 5.58. Could the lower pH be source of my problems? If so, what could I do to correct it with the plants in? Water with pH up solution?

I know that stress is usually to blame for blossom drop -- temperature too high/low, disease, over Nitrogen, nutrient deficiencies, etc. I know the plants are fighting a bout of fungus/mildew , but I think it's reasonably under control. BTW, any ideas exactly what that is based on the pics? I've got my temperature dialed in. I think humidity is a bit high. I'm concerned about the pH? What else haven't I considered. I've spent countless hours on this winter garden, let's not mention the cost, so getting through all this with only a few meager, sad tomatoes will be a major bummer for me. It's even more insulting since the plants are so seemly healthy and robust, except for the fungus issues. I need your ideas.

Thanks for helping out!
--naysen

[maf]

Naysen, I don't know exactly what your problem is, but if you have ruled out temperature and humidity it is most likely something in the soil, whether it be nutrient imbalance or PH issues or whatever. A flush might help. If I was currently in your situation I would siphon out the reservoir of your containers, then top water until the reservoir was full again, siphon the reservoir again and then wait a day or two before refilling the reservoir with fresh water.

In future years I would recommend growing the plants in smaller containers. I have found that when growing indoors under artificial light conditions the plants flower better and earlier with a smaller root space. I have grown dwarf plants indoors in containers varying between 4 and 10 litres in size, and have never used anything bigger than 10 litres which is about 2.5 US gallons. Because the artificial light does not penetrate deeply in the canopy it is best to encourage a somewhat restricted growth height combined with earlier flowering by reducing the root area.

As for the fungal leaf dieback issues, that looks minimal as it is restricted to the lower leaves and the plants look healthy. Just cut and bin all the affected leaves. Greenhouse growers generally remove any foliage below the oldest fruit truss as a matter of course.

[z_willus_d]

Hi Maf- thanks for posting. I had never considered the possibility that a bigger container and hence larger roots could result in lesser results. More is not always better then. But what you've described makes sense. I have some fairly powerful lights running, so it may be that while these 18-gallons InnTainers are overkill for two Dwarfs, something as small as 2.5-gallons might be under-doing it. In any case, I married to these Tainers now -- spent too much time making them, filling, and ...

So the flush idea isn't bad. I haven't tried that yet, and I've tried an awful lot. I just refilled the reservoirs, so it would be another week or less before I could try this. My main concern would be that I'd likely flush out all the good mycos, root excelurator, etc. I've added, but then maybe that's the point. I think it's worth a try, certainly. BTW, what level humidity would you consider too high for indoor growing?

Thanks again.
-naysen

[maf]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

BTW, what level humidity would you consider too high for indoor growing?

I don't have a meter to test humidity but when mine was too high my sunglasses would steam up when entering the grow room, if that is any help. I have to wear sunglasses in there because the light seems very bright.

So the flush idea isn't bad. I haven't tried that yet, and I've tried an awful lot. I just refilled the reservoirs, so it would be another week or less before I could try this.

I am not sure if you are misunderstanding me or not, but what I am suggesting is to run a tube into the reservoir via the filler tube, or the overflow if there is one, and siphon the liquid out, then flush from the top and siphon again when the reservoir refills.

Just so I have an idea of what you are dealing with what is the total wattage for the lights you are using and what size growing area do they cover? (You have probably posted this info in another thread, but some of them are really long and I can't afford the time to search.)

[rnewste]

Naysen,

I mentioned this on the InnTainer Thread a while ago, but I am also growing an identical Rosella Purple, as well as Iditarod Red Dwarf Project plants. To date, I have experienced only one blossom drop, with about 15 current flowers growing, and 3 fruitset on both plants combined.





If you are experiencing mass blossom drop on all of your plants, then something fundamental is out of whack. It isn't the size of the container you (we) are using - - it MUST be something related to what is in your Grow Media, or one of the Additives used.

When you applied the Roots Excelurator, did you apply only a trace amount? My son tells me some of his customers apply too much, and this causes dysfunctional growth. This is a VERY potent product, and while the thought of "a little more is better" sounds good, he cautions to use only half the dosage recommended on the label.

Again, he has the same advice when applying the Grow Big / Tiger Bloom fertilizers. "Less is more" is what he tells me re: use of these products on tomato plants. Next Season, I am going to completely cut out the application of Roots Excelurator, and only use Great White myco for the InnTainer plants, along with the Tomato-tone fertilizer.

Raybo

[maf]

Yes, less is usually more when it comes to soil additives which is why I suggested flushing the potting medium.

[rnewste]

Originally Posted by maf

Yes, less is usually more when it comes to soil additives which is why I suggested flushing the potting medium.

maf,

Would Naysen flushing the Grow Media with a product like Clearex help?



It is used for leaching out excess salts buildup in container media.

Raybo

[maf]

Ray, your inntainers are in a south facing window (IIRC) in California so will be exposed to more intense light than those grown exclusively under artificial lights. And thus use water at a faster rate.

In my experience plants grown close together under lights need approximately 0.33 of a litre per plant per day.

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by rnewste

When you applied the Roots Excelurator, did you apply only a trace amount? My son tells me some of his customers apply too much, and this causes dysfunctional growth. This is a VERY potent product, and while the thought of "a little more is better" sounds good, he cautions to use only half the dosage recommended on the label.

Again, he has the same advice when applying the Grow Big / Tiger Bloom fertilizers. "Less is more" is what he tells me re: use of these products on tomato plants. Next Season, I am going to completely cut out the application of Roots Excelurator, and only use Great White myco for the InnTainer plants, along with the Tomato-tone fertilizer.
Raybo

Hi Ray. I applied only the most minimal amount of roots excelurator per the instructions. Indeed, the instructions recommend repeated applications, but I've only applied something like 1/2 a tsn to a Gallon across all Tainers, and only once now. In any case, these problems all started long before any applications, save for the half-strength application of TigerBloom (around 3-times applied with watering) and a one time application of 1/2 tsp Calcium Nitrate per plant. It's been at about 2 months since I've last given the plants any of these fertilizers. I'm nearly certain my problem isn't related to over fertilization, given I never went overboard in that area and I've cut everything with N out so long ago. It's got to be something else stressing the plants.
--naysen

[z_willus_d]

Hi Maf, ok siphoning is tricky. I know from sucking wine out of carboys during racking. The Tainers would need to be lifted up for that to work, and they're not going anywhere without their rack now. I could probably drain out a good portion of the reservoir by just dumping from the level viewing tube, which is about 1" up from the base.

Originally Posted by maf

Just so I have an idea of what you are dealing with what is the total wattage for the lights you are using and what size growing area do they cover? (You have probably posted this info in another thread, but some of them are really long and I can't afford the time to search.)

One rack uses a 175W or so LED light that is supposed to be equivalent to 300+ I think. The 2nd rack has an 8-bulb T5 HO fluorescent rig with half warm half 6500K lights. You can kind of get an idea of the setup looking at the pics I posted.

THanks, Naysen

[z_willus_d]

Maf- do you have any comment on the pH? 5.5 on a couple of my measurements seems low, but would it explain what I'm experiencing? Other than the micro bark and Sunshine #4 (Sphagnum Moss), and the castings, I didn't add anything that would significantly lower pH.

Thanks, Naysen

[maf]

I am not sure if low pH could explain what you are seeing or not. The bark will be quite acidic, could it be that the containers with lower ph have higher percentage of bark content than the others? I know it is said that 6-6.5 is best for tomatoes, but 5.6 is not that far out of the zone.

I could probably drain out a good portion of the reservoir by just dumping from the level viewing tube, which is about 1" up from the base.

Yes that would probably work. From what you have said it is unclear whether there could be salt builup or not, but it wouldn't hurt to empty the reservoir and top flush a couple of times just in case.

[Patrina_Pepperina]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

I know that stress is usually to blame for blossom drop --

Naysen, sorry to hear about your probs with the dwarfs, and since I've grown a heck of a lot of these I thought I'd let you know what I've found to be a major reason for blossom drop in my environment (haven't grown them indoors but since you have a fan going I assume that the flowers are getting some movement, possibly not enough tho).

Have a closer look at the flowers, and see if some of them look like the pics in this thread.

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=20378

Many larger fruited tomato varieties seem to have flowers that may pollinate best out in the open where there is a lot more wind, a lot more pollinators moving pollen around, and a lot more variations in humidity levels. Pollen is a lot less likely to fly around inside a flower if it's very humid (it tends to clump), so it will reduce the chance of it landing on the tip of the stigma to pollinate the flower. However some flowers have exerted stigmas as you will see in some of the pics in the link above, and it is very unlikely that those flowers will set fruit, so they just drop off the plant unpollinated.

You could try buzzing the flowers with an electric toothbrush which is what I do for those types of flowers (I have had similar problems with the some of the Sneezy family such as Dwarf Mr Snow and Summertime Gold whereas Craig's team growers seem to do better with them outdoors in particular). I had reasonable fruitset with Summertime Green in ground this year.

Other families such as Grumpy and Witty tend to be more prolific, so there's sure to be something that will suit your indoor gardening better down the track. Unfortunately it doesn't help you right now!

Patrina

[z_willus_d]

Patrina,

Lots and lots of dropped blossoms, and you raise the question that I've totally overlooked, could it *be* the blossoms and not the plant? Actually, I had noticed an awful lot of awful looking blossoms of the assorted types that you've captured in the linked thread.

I was using an electric toothbrush to aid pollination a while back, but I stopped for a couple reasons: 1) the brush wasn't mine, but my honey's, and she didn't appreciate sharing here brush-head with the genitals of some plant; 2) I got the impression that it wasn't helping too much. Maybe it was though, as I at least got a some fruit set back when I was using it. I replaced the brush with daily cage thwackings and got the fan running.

If my problem relates to the high humidity, lack of pollination assistance, and these mutant blossoms, I wonder what explains for distribution of fruit set that I've encountered? Here's the rough tally:
4 Rosella Purple -- ~10 fruit
2 Summertime Gold -- ~ 3 fruit
1 Beryl Beauty -- 2 fruit
1 Tasmanian Chocolate -- 2 fruit
1 Summertime Green -- 1 fruit
3 Dwarf Mr. Snow -- 0 fruit

It might be that the Dwarf Mr. Snow were behind the other dwarfs in flowering back when the humidity was lower and I was using the electric toothbrush aid. Maybe they missed out on the good times. I'll have start back with the toothbrush, turn up the fan, and see about my humidity. Do you believe humidity in the 55 to 65% range is too high for indoor growing of the dwarfs? I might need a dehumidifier, which is ironic given I'd only purchased a humidifier a month or so back.

I attached some pictures of my flowers that I took a moment ago. The first two are from my Dwarf Mr. Snow (no fruit set). 3rd is Dwarf Beryl Beauty. Fourth is either Mr. Snow or Summertime Gold. Fifth is a Rosella Purple. 6th Summertime Gold. 7th and 8th, can't recall, either Mr. Snow or Summertime Gold. 9th is my graveyard. It's getting ugly in there.

I really appreciate your help in unraveling this mystery. Mr. Snow was the tomato I was looking forward the most, well him and Miss R. Purple.

Thanks--
--naysen

[Patrina_Pepperina]

It's quite difficult to tell the length of the stigma in relation to the anther cone (inner yellow part of the flower that comes to a point) in most of those pics because the flowers are past their prime, and the petals (specifically the outer yellow layer that fold backwards when the flowers are bright yellow) have withered and folded over the parts I needed to see

Anyhow, in the 4th pic the lower flower looks OK for setting fruit IF the pollen is not clumped, however, notice that the yellow tips are curled away from the central green tip of the stigma rather than covering it to a tight point? This means that instead of concentrating the pollen to the actual stigma tip, the pollen easily just escapes into the air. This flower still sets fruit some of the time, especially with the electric toothbrush buzzing the flowers. The flowers in pic number 6 look similar.

Most of those flowers in your pics are past setting fruit stage and will probably drop if they haven't alread set, and you won't know for sure until they drop or stay put. The flowers in the last pic look like they "could" be the type that have open ends with curled yellow anther tips, or even too short anthers like in my pics, but it's too hard to tell once the old petals kinda close over the dead blossoms, sorry.

My suggestion for new flowers is to gather some pollen in a shot glass by buzzing the flowers with the electric toothbrush - that will tell you if the pollen is clumped or not - and paint it on the stigmas with a fine brush very very gently so at least you will get some fruit to eat from this lot! Bright yellow flowers are when you should get little clouds of pollen, and if you don't then it would suggest it's too humid in there. I would move Dwarf Mr Snow to an accessible position to do it so you don't miss out on tasting this one.... Might have to negotiate a plan with the owner of the electric toothbrush tho

Dwarf Mr Snow is definitely delicious! Tasted my first real fruit from a volunteer person yesterday. My container plant did too poorly to evaluate regrettably, but most of my container problems are nothing to do with the plants - I hate growing in containers and they rarely do well unless the containers are really BIG!

Patrina