Zapotec - leaf type

[tam91]

I planted a few Zapotec seeds, and I got one RL and one PL. I'm assuming the RL is correct, and the PL is likely crossed?

(I was pretty careful, I don't think I mixed up any seeds... I hope)

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by tam91

I planted a few Zapotec seeds, and I got one RL and one PL. I'm assuming the RL is correct, and the PL is likely crossed?

(I was pretty careful, I don't think I mixed up any seeds... I hope)

Tam, there are several different names for Zapotec, in my SSE YEarbook and Tania mentions them at her page for Zapotec. Listed in the Pinik Section of the YEarbook.

One person lists Zapotec in the red section of the yearbook RARE seeds from Lisa at Amishland, NOT, but with all listings I saw only RL foliage.

Since PL is a recessive trait, and a PL variety has to be homozygous recessive to have that trait, I think it's more likely that your RL seedlings might be crossed, since RL is dominant to PL.

With only two seeds up it's kind of impossible to know if the RL OR PL are from crossed seeds or one or the other are stray seeds.

Did you receive the seeds in a trade or did you buy them, and if the latter, what did the blurb say about leaf form?

I grew it just once and I think you'll see why at the Zapotec page at Tania's. IL LO N is a good friend and when he says taste is just good, that's way down on his list of taste adjectives. Others suggest the same. And note that Tania herself says partially hollow fruits. So I didn't think the taste was good either, and yes, the fruits were hollow, either partially or completely.

If you find the ribbing, pleating, as some call it, interesting, why don't you try Pink Accordian, which is also a highly ribbed variety although I didn't look it up to see what others said about performance and taste.

[tam91]

Thanks Carolyn.

Trying to remember my genetics.... So if I understand you correctly, this means that neither of my seedlings are probably the real (pure) Zapotec?

I got the seeds from an offer here. (not sure if it is polite to say who)

I read that this was a great tomato for salsa, the variety usually used in Mexico. So I wanted to try them for that purpose, more than the appearance (although it is cool). I'll take a note of your recommendation also, for the appearance.

Of course, even though I was careful, I could have mixed up a seed.

[brokenbar]

One of those who requested seeds from me said he got 1 PL Zapotec out of all of his seedlings. I am very careful when gathering and saving seed but "****" happens and I do not see as well as I once did nor are my fingers quite as nimble. The seeds were open pollinated.

My Husband grows many PL varieties so a mutation is possible I guess. We have SCADS of bees in Mexico as well as wind. If some got mixed up (Tam91, don't worry about hurting my feelings!) I will apologize in advance. I also sent these home with my Son to Wyoming and he packaged them so maybe I can blame it on the kid. NOTHING is more frustrating than growing a variety you have been wanting to try and having some other variety turn up...

[tam91]

Thanks Brokenbar.
I only sowed a few seeds (limited space, too many good varieties) so if they were just mixed up that'd be good news - I can just grow out the RL, and perhaps it will be correct.

btw - you're all welcome to call me by my name, Tracy. I'm just very unimaginitave with user names. (all names actually, you should see how long it took me to name my new puppy!)

[brokenbar]

Originally Posted by tam91

Thanks Brokenbar.
I only sowed a few seeds (limited space, too many good varieties) so if they were just mixed up that'd be good news - I can just grow out the RL, and perhaps it will be correct.

btw - you're all welcome to call me by my name, Tracy. I'm just very unimaginitave with user names. (all names actually, you should see how long it took me to name my new puppy!)

Okay Tracy!

Now I started 25 Zapotec (Carolyn and I are going to have "agree to disagree" on Zapotec but that's okay because I HATE chocolate and I know she loves it! ) but I got no PL out of all my seedlings. I use the Zapotec solely for salsa so I grow a lot of them as I can a lot of salsa. On the other hand, I had one PL in my Costoluto seedlings and it has fruit and they are scalloped but way dinkier than my Costoluto and they are turning pink so I have no idea as I grow nothing like that so I will have to wait and see what the heck it is. And Mary is fine with me likewise!

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by brokenbar

Okay Tracy!

Now I started 25 Zapotec (Carolyn and I are going to have "agree to disagree" on Zapotec but that's okay because I HATE chocolate and I know she loves it! ) but I got no PL out of all my seedlings. I use the Zapotec solely for salsa so I grow a lot of them as I can a lot of salsa. On the other hand, I had one PL in my Costoluto seedlings and it has fruit and they are scalloped but way dinkier than my Costoluto and they are turning pink so I have no idea as I grow nothing like that so I will have to wait and see what the heck it is. And Mary is fine with me likewise!

Mary, yes, we will have to agree to disagree, that's for sure.
b/c I simply cannot compare good chocolate to a tomato variety, and that's ANY tomato variety.

I have just my own single experience with Zapotec as well as reading about the reports from others. I guess for some like yourself it works well for you but for others not so good when it comes to the hollowness.

As is oft said, the only way to know if it's a variety that you like, grow out a few plants, and yes Tracy, I'D grow the RL one and see what you get. I was going to go into some more genetics, but I don't think that's necessary at this point.

[tam91]

Thanks Mary.

They sound great. Hopefully I'll get some this year (I LOVE salsa), but if not, there's always next year. In fact, I love Mexican food in general - can I come see you?

I'll have to check my Costoluto Genovese, you were kind enough to send me some of those also. I think they were ok though.

[tam91]

I was either going to chop it up for salsa, or try stuffing it, so the hollowness won't matter. I will grow out that regular leaf one and see what I get.
Thanks Carolyn - I'll have to hear the genetics another time then (I do love that stuff, but it's been a while since I looked at any)

[k3vin]

Just an update on this thread. I was the other person who brokenbar referenced as getting one Zapotec PL seedling among several RL seedlings. I grew it out next to the RL seedlings and they appear identical in every regard, other than leaf form. Both forms have a very distinctive and identical bluish irridescence to their leaves. Fruits look and taste the same. I am suspecting a leaf form mutation rather than a cross, much like what is suspected to have happened with Indian Stripe PL. The fruits are dry but still very tasty. Perfect for salsa, but good for fresh eating too. I saved plenty seed, and will grow it again next year to see if it stable.

[cloz]

I am growing 2 Zapotec (from bokenbar) and I also have one PL and one RL. Mine are still a couple of weeks at least away from being ripe, but I do have the pleated handbag looking fruit on both. The PL also has some fruit that look like a less pleated pear.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by k3vin

Just an update on this thread. I was the other person who brokenbar referenced as getting one Zapotec PL seedling among several RL seedlings. I grew it out next to the RL seedlings and they appear identical in every regard, other than leaf form. Both forms have a very distinctive and identical bluish irridescence to their leaves. Fruits look and taste the same. I am suspecting a leaf form mutation rather than a cross, much like what is suspected to have happened with Indian Stripe PL. The fruits are dry but still very tasty. Perfect for salsa, but good for fresh eating too. I saved plenty seed, and will grow it again next year to see if it stable.

K3, it really is difficult to know if the change from an original RL to PL is due to a single spontaneous mutation or crossing where different mechanisms come into play such as DNA looping out, repeats, inversions, etc., where more than one gene is affected and whatever those other possible genes are is not always apparent by sight or by taste, the latter being both perceceptual and personal and even has a human genetic component.

It could only be a single spontaneous mutation if Zapotec is heterozygous for leaf form;

CC= homozygous dominant, RL
Cc = heterozygous, RL
cc = homozygous recessive, PL

There are two different PL versions of Cherokee Purple and when a person grows out both of those and compares with the original RL, different conclusions have been made by different folks, and that's growing all of them out in the same season.

Many feel that KBX (PL) is exactly the same as Kellogg's Breakfast (RL) and as regards Indian Stripe PL, the person who sent me the seeds for that felt that it was the same as the RL, I did too, but only with many folks growing both in the same season will data be accumulated on that one. And in another month or so I'll be putting up a thread about those varieties I distributed in my Jan seed offer, and IS (PL) was one of them.

It would be nice if we knew what the genotype of a particular variety is from the get go, either CC or Cc, but we don't. We only can only work backwards on that when a PL version shows up.

So we shall see, and of course it's so very helpful if one grows the original RL and the PL version in the same season of ANY variety where a leaf form change has occured.