Layered Soil

[Andybear]

Would it help to layer the soil in accordance with the plants growth. Ie different nutrients and fertilisers in different layers. So that when the plant grows its roots will then be at the layer which best suits the plants needs? Or is this just a fancy full waste of time.

[casserole]

No
No

[Andybear]

Originally Posted by casserole

No
No

Thanks for the response but why no no

[feldon30]

If you are growing indeterminate tomato varieties, which is most heirlooms, and most good-flavored varieties, then the tomato plants will need all different types of nutrients at the same time.

The plants will continue to put on vegetative growth (leaves and stems), flowers, and produce fruit over the length of the season.

[Darren Abbey]

The boundary between layers will be seen as a barrier to the growing roots.

There might hypothetically be some plants somewhere which expect a layered distribution of nutrients (phosphorous at the surface, calcium deeper, etc...), but garden plants tend to be evolved from weedy plants which grow best in disturbed soil... which would have any such layers homogenized.

[Andybear]

Thanks to all for the reply looks like I wanted to over think the whole process of nutrients and tomato growing. Not good, but now that, thats out of the way let me get on with the job at hand tomato growing.

Thanks

[Andybear]

Thanks Habitat for the link also a good read on how to enrich your soil and to keep it that way

[docgipe]

Hey there...now listen closely. I'm a Dutch German Roads Scholar seventy six years old. My gardening for more than fifty years has been ninety nine percent organic. The other one percent I lie about or just simply do not talk about. Most of my life I was a backyard gardener working on about a thousand square feet garden area. Nearly all of my soil building has be using organic principles and the method most commonly called permanent mulch.

When I retired my garden three years ago the organic content was by test seventeen percent. The worm count was high...very high and all known elements were in nice ballance.
That garden is growing some twice a week cut lawn grass now. All that I garden now is in pots and tubs. I maintain far more compost than I need but there is literally no place where a little more compost would not improve the area.

I too am somewhat of a hot dog or garden nut. I like to grow big stuff and tinker with unusual seldom seen plants....now in the house and around a large patio.

The only advise I consistently give is to suggest any gardener purchase a paperback under ten bucks titled simply: Let It Rot. It is available on line. When one gets the hang and basic understanding of this book no other book is of much value.

Attached is an image of my tomato insanity this year. We were eating them by July 4th when the plant was approaching nine feet. It is now over nine feet and still growing. I fed it weekly weakly liquid fish oil, kelp and compost tea. The growing medium is garden soil, compost and pro-mix. Pro mix is Canadian Peat with Mycorrihizae.

[friedgreen51]

Thanks for taking the time to write such a lengthy and informative post. I read all of it and it confirms for me even more the importance or organic matter. Some impressive tomatoes.

[docgipe]

There are writers that must cover the pages of our many gardening magazines. Each year we read about this and that being the best way to make compost. Let us turn our eye to nature. Mother in the wild woodlots, briar patches and unfarmed land showing just whatever shows up. The one consistant factor is a mix of everything growing in any situation. Each plant has a little something different to add to the total because the roots work at different levels in the soil. The bottom line is a fact so often not discussed in the compost articles is that compost is a rotted mix of plants. Our writers very often set up a single plant like kudzu as the very best of all plants. Where I live possibly the best plant would be alfalfa often compaired to the best kelp from the cleanest portions of the world's oceans. Alfalfa compost is a two word phrase I've never seen anyone make a big deal about alfalfa yet it is one of our best compost when mixed with many other plants. A two word phrase like alfalfa compost is not really compost in my book. However if you mix alfalfa with many other plants and let it rot it will become a very good compost. When all of the parts are broken down to the point you can not identify any of the parts you have "Let It Rot" and made compost. This finished compost will have a PH of about 7.0 or netrual condition by tested measurement. All of the other good things we care to talk about is in that compost nicely balanced. As soon as we hand a professional writer a pen expect this simple compost to become anything the writer wishes to cover the article space with something new. The writer has to cover space or he or she does not earn a paycheck. The only exceptions would be a few garden plants that enjoy a PH that leans towards the acid side of plant needs. One example would be potatos. The makers of organic fertilizer have products for these needs which is stated on the label. If the average gardener comes up with a PH of 6.0 -7.0 they will not need to tweek much.

[cmarchan]

Hey all,

I am really enjoying this discussion. I hear a lot of common themes and a few ones to add to the part of my brain that is dedicated to soil. I am trying to increase the organic content of my soil and use a variety of organic sources. Lets see.. I have grass clippings from my lawn. To be honest, it would be a melange of plants with dandylions at the top of the list. I use poultry manure from my chicken coop composted with lots of bedding material. The bedding material would be mostly salt marsh hay and some eelgrass. I throw all my kitchen scraps into the compost bins or chicken coop, if they are chicken friendly. I put some leaves or grass clippings into the compost bins to bury scraps that the crows would consume. Oh yeah, In winter I put a fair bit of wood ash/charcoal directly onto the garden beds for ph adjustment and potassium. I feed the chickens some alfalfa or clover, which they love. I put bone meal on the beds especially below the tomato transplants.

Now, I have been thinking about limiting factors wrt soil productivity. I mean, the obvious need for nitrogen never seems to be a problem, even though I put in a bit of horse manure from my friend next door who uses copious amounts of sawdust for bedding. I have never had a nitrogen immobilization problem despite the sawdust. I have however, in past years been guilty of using manure that was too fresh and the resulting 10 ft tomato plants with not one tomato. So, let's say some other tomato gardener has met his/her plants requirements for N/P and K but is lacking one of the micronutrients. Would he/she expect less than perfect plants or productivity. Based on the "limiting factor" principle if one nutrient becomes unavailable growth should stop, IN THEORY. With respect to tomato plants does this principle only apply to N/P and K, or does it apply to some of the micronutrients too?

The reason I ask this convoluted question is because the other day I thought I would fertilize my healthy fruit producing tomato plants and so I mixed up a bit of chicken manure tea to apply to the soil around each plant. After applying the foul smelling liquid I regretted having done it. This was not just because of the smell, but I thought about this limiting factor principle and maybe the growth spurt that the manure tea would cause would be plant growth that was not truly healthy, but rather growth that was deficient in other important nutrients not present, or available from the tea.

So, is my line of thinking correct? Does the application of a fertilizer, such as chicken manure or synthetic granular fertilizer,which might be deficient in micronutrients, cause growth which may be less diesease resistant or less productive?

[docgipe]

We have but two choices in soil building. The pure and simple facts are that the harsh man made chemicals are at the very least factors that delay, stop or reverse biological improvement in the soil. The resulting quality of the food grown is reduced by tested and proven facts. Why would we consider the harsh chemicals that harm the very biology we absolutely must have to build the quality of the soil and produce the highest quality produce in the improved soil?

I have been using organic principles for fifty years. If I can not grow it I try to purchase or swap with another organic grower to keep the quality I desire most always available. I am now retired and growing very little but my fellow organic growers have increased in numbers and skill. We can get most of what we like to have at the grower's markets.

I have only tested my soil on occasion because someone doubted my claims. I do not feel that well practiced growers need to play with the test results because the tests were made to please the chemistry peddlers.

[docgipe]

Just to CMA I forgot to say....One might get soil that is in horrible shape tested prior to purchase. It might be able to be used as a bargining factor.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by cmarchan

Hey all,

So, is my line of thinking correct? Does the application of a fertilizer, such as chicken manure or synthetic granular fertilizer,which might be deficient in micronutrients, cause growth which may be less diesease resistant or less productive?

I personally think you are over-thinking it. There are certainly exceptions, but if you quit thinking "fertilizer" all together, it would probably help you the best. Instead of thinking about fertilizing plants growing in poor nutrient deficient soil, try thinking along the lines of improving the soil. It is after all a philosophy or way of thinking more than anything else.

You improve the soil by creating a micro ecology for recycling organic matter. That includes bacteria, worms, and even insects munching on food. That food is decaying material. So feed the soil with mulch compost and manure. The soil ecosystem will use that food and release all the nutrients you need for healthy plant growth.

If the soil is really poor to start with, you may need to jump start the process with sea weeds and/or fish emulsion, lime, bacterial and fungus treatments or whatever. BUT basically that really isn't needed in most cases once you restore balance. There are exceptions but it obviously isn't that complicated because nature herself does it in pristine wilderness all the time without our help.

[dice]

A mix of different kinds of tree leaves helps a lot with
micronutrient supply:
http://www.spectrumanalytic.com/supp...pal_Leaves.htm

With actual municipal leaves from a city with lots of parks,
homeowners with trees, etc, you may want to compost
it before spreading it as mulch, to give pesticides that
may have been sprayed on them (for tent caterpillars,
beetles that endanger forests, etc) more time to break
down before using it as mulch, and maybe even do a test
planting in a container by mixing the composted leaves
with potting soil (in case there is something really nasty
and slow to break down in them). With your own leaves,
you probably know if you have used any toxic pesticides
on them.

(Some munipalities that collect leaves may test their shredded
leaf debris before making it available to the public, too.)

Growing close to the ocean, salt marsh hay that has decayed
over a season is probably rich in micronutrients as well.