another mulch thread

[TightenUp]

i plan to mulch with straw which i'm testing now for herbicide. i have access to fresh grass clippings as well.

i'm thinking of laying down some grass clippings first then placing a 4-5 inches of straw on top of that. anyone do this before or see a problem here? i'm a little worried the grass will heat up so i plan to use sparingly. is this a common practice for anyone here?

[Redbaron]

Common for me. But I usually put the straw first and the grass clippings on top of that.

To be honest not sure which is best as I never tried it the other way around.

As far as grass clippings heating up, yes they will, but only if they are used too thick. Instead of 6 inches or more, apply 3 inches or less and a week or two later apply another 3 inches.

[SIP Gro-Tubs]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

Common for me. But I usually put the straw first and the grass clippings on top of that.

To be honest not sure which is best as I never tried it the other way around.

As far as grass clippings heating up, yes they will, but only if they are used too thick. Instead of 6 inches or more, apply 3 inches or less and a week or two later apply another 3 inches.

Redbaron

You are confusing me, and probably others on this forum, but are afraid to say so.

Since I'm trying to learn about your "PermaCulture" way of growing, I read a lot of threads here from the advace searches, using keywords, like "Permaculture, Organics, etc".

In other thread posts on the use of new wood chips as mulch you stated that the chips would "Suck the Nitrogen from the soil"

Arn't wood chips, straw, and hay, basically just a form of cellulose matter, but in different forms.

So if you now say to put the straw first, you will be "Sucking the Nitrogen from the soil" also.

Yes, fresh Grass clipping are a source for nitrogen in a compost pile, but thats due to them being buried in amongst the other materials, keeping the clipping moist so the nitrogen in them has time to dissapate into the other brown materials, and not letting them to dry out.

But putting them on top of the ground just 3" thick they will dry very fast, and go from being a green Nitrogen material to a brown Carbon material, which in this case will also help "Suck the Nitrogen from the soil" being that the nitrogen is being gassed off to the air, due to it being on top of the straw.

Terry Layman

[Redbaron]

Well Terry, the reason I put the grass clippings on top has nothing to do with nitrogen.

Fresh grass clippings, bagged fresh cut, will form a sort of "crust" or "mat" that helps with holding the moisture in and the weeds that sprout from the straw from turning into a weed issue.

The clippings will drop plenty of nitrogen through when it rains. So nitrogen is not an issue when using both straw and grass clippings.

I also know several people promoting lasagna style no till actually say to use the straw on top. They may be right. I never tried both ways side by side.

As far as wood chips goes. That will take far more nitrogen to decay than straw. So care must be taken using them....especially the first few years. But that nitrogen is not "lost". It will release later. Probably, (depending on the bioactivity of the soil and moisture) a couple years for that to fully decay. Straw can easily decay and release whatever nitrogen was "sucked up" by it in less than one season.

One more point. Wood chips are not created equal. Not only are the woods different, some may contain cambium layer, bark, leaves etc.... and some may just be wood. It reacts quite differently in the garden. I have tried those side by side, so I am quite sure on that one.

[SIP Gro-Tubs]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

Not only are the woods different, some may contain cambium layer, bark, leaves etc.... and some may just be wood..

Just how does a wood chipper, grinder, or shredder seperate the the wood from the camium layer, bark, leaves, etc. to get just wood chips?

Terry

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by SIP Gro-Tubs

Just how does a wood chipper, grinder, or shredder seperate the the wood from the camium layer, bark, leaves, etc. to get just wood chips?

Terry

They don't, but the saw mill does. Also the size of the logs or branches makes a huge difference. Large logs when chipped are mostly wood. Small branches when chipped contain a much higher % leaves bark etc They are two different materials as far as how they react in the garden.

If the material you use is basically chunky sawdust, then you'll have to add leaves grass clippings manure or other materials in far larger quantities to make up for the nitrogen sink and age it a much longer time before adding to the garden. If it was made from small branches and twigs you can usually use it in the garden as is.

I have tried using straight "sawdust" wood chips before. It is very difficult to work with. I had all sorts of problems. Mix it with manure and other organic material and age it 6 months or a year first and it becomes garden gold!

[COMPOSTER]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

They don't, but the saw mill does. Also the size of the logs or branches makes a huge difference. Large logs when chipped are mostly wood. Small branches when chipped contain a much higher % leaves bark etc They are two different materials as far as how they react in the garden.

If the material you use is basically chunky sawdust, then you'll have to add leaves grass clippings manure or other materials in far larger quantities to make up for the nitrogen sink and age it a much longer time before adding to the garden. If it was made from small branches and twigs you can usually use it in the garden as is.

I have tried using straight "sawdust" wood chips before. It is very difficult to work with. I had all sorts of problems. Mix it with manure and other organic material and age it 6 months or a year first and it becomes garden gold!

Agree with Redbaron on the sawdust. Used a lot of it in a compost pile and let it age/rot for around 18 months and it was some of the most beautiful fluffy compost I had ever made. Worked very well in the garden, but the key (and I had read about it before I made the pile) was to let that sawdust break down/compost for a long time before mixing it into the soil. I will have to say that I do worry a little about trated lumber if you do pick up sawdust from some mills.

[GaryVSmith]

Comment and question at same time. I finished my first raised tomato bed and filled it with garden soil, peat moss, compost and manure in proportions I've read on various sites. Planted tomatoes 3 days ago and mulched the bed tonight. I used 3 inches of grass clippings top with 2 to 3 inches of natural cedar mulch (commercially bagged). We had lots of rain over the weekend but today was cool, windy with some sun. I now just read that I should have let the soil dry out before mulching. Am I in trouble? Will I have to remove all mulch and redo when ground dries out or should I leave it as is and wait awhile before next watering. Thanks

[TightenUp]

i dont know why you'd want the soil dry when one of the key purposes of mulching is water retention.

[TightenUp]

and welcome to tomatoville

[Durgan]

Originally Posted by GaryVSmith

Comment and question at same time. I finished my first raised tomato bed and filled it with garden soil, peat moss, compost and manure in proportions I've read on various sites. Planted tomatoes 3 days ago and mulched the bed tonight. I used 3 inches of grass clippings top with 2 to 3 inches of natural cedar mulch (commercially bagged). We had lots of rain over the weekend but today was cool, windy with some sun. I now just read that I should have let the soil dry out before mulching. Am I in trouble? Will I have to remove all mulch and redo when ground dries out or should I leave it as is and wait awhile before next watering. Thanks

My Method.
http://www.durgan.org/URL/?VLYDB 21 May 2013 Mulching Tomatoes
It rained last night and the ground is reasonably moist. It is an ideal time to mulch. A yard of wood chips was placed on the tomato patch. This layer is about three inches thick. The purpose is to retain moisture, to inhibit evaporation from a hot Sun.

[GaryVSmith]

Makes sense and thanks for welcome. I was referring to a note found on a site from Tulsa World -Master Gardener Bill Sevier who quotes "A word of warning relates to our recent rains: If your soil is wet, allow it to dry to a reasonable level before mulching."