Lets try this seed saving thing again

[SueCT]

OK, first try last year, did a really bad job and I knew it at the time, too much other stuff going on. I Let the seeds dry out in the container and not surprisingly no germination when I tested them this year, so I tossed the entire lot. I just scraped out the seeds from my first ripe Estler's Mortgage Lifter tomato this year. Could not bring myself to toss the entire tomato in the container, I had to eat it. Now, there is only about 1/2 inch of seeds and goo in the bottom of the container, which has been sitting on my counter for about 36 hours. Hopefully I haven't done anything wrong yet, lol.





What next? Is that enough goo or do I need to squeeze some tomato juice from another tomato in there or add water? How much do I need? Will they ferment on my kitchen counter or rather my craft room counter or warm window sill or do they need to be outside? I am afraid they will get blown over or knocked over when I am at work if I leave them outside.

[RayR]

Just add some water, an equal amount or more. Cover it and let it ferment. I usually let it go for 5 days or so.

[ginger2778]

What Ray said is fine, but really, the amount of liquid looks just fine to me, and I also do a lot of fermentation seed saving. Just keep an eye on it, dont let it dry out, keep it where warm but not windy, watch for a white film on the top to get just a bit thick. Also, swirl it for a few seconds once per day. Mine usually ferment to where I need them in about 4-5 days.

Then once you see the lightly thick white covering, or could be grey or black, then fill the container a few times with water, very slowly and carefully pouring it off so that good seeds fall to the bottom, floaters are not good, so pour those off too. Do until the water is clear and all the tomato bits are poured off. Then drain, and put the seeds out on a non coated paper plate or coffee filter, something absorbent. Let them dry in a single layer thoroughly for about 1-2 weeks, and store in a cool dry place.

[SueCT]

I have seen various posts about adding water, you shouldn't add water, tomato juice is better, it doesn't matter, etc, lol. When you say cover it do you mean with something air permeable like gauze or really cover it by putting the screw on cover back on it? I left it uncovered because I thought that was necessary for the bacteria required for fermentation to get in it.

I thought of another question, lol. I just picked 2 more ML tomatoes that will ripen inside over the next 2-3 days. Can I just keep adding to this jar, with the juice that is in there or should I start a new jar for each time? I might need to eat more Talenti Gelato before the end of the season. I hear the empty Fudge brownie and Double Dark Chocolate containers result in better fermentation of tomato seeds.

[ginger2778]

Originally Posted by SueCT

I have seen various posts about adding water, you shouldn't add water, tomato juice is better, it doesn't matter, etc, lol. When you say cover it do you mean with something air permeable like gauze or really cover it by putting the screw on cover back on it? I left it uncovered because I thought that was necessary for the bacteria required for fermentation to get in it.

If I cover at all, I use plastic wrap but poke a toothpick hole in it. Covering keeps the gnats out. You could add a few drops of water if you see it getting too thick. I have never added tomato juice, but I have seen that described. I have added a little water plenty of times. It isn't that specific, you have a little leeway in the amount of water you add.

[ginger2778]

Originally Posted by SueCT

I have seen various posts about adding water, you shouldn't add water, tomato juice is better, it doesn't matter, etc, lol. When you say cover it do you mean with something air permeable like gauze or really cover it by putting the screw on cover back on it? I left it uncovered because I thought that was necessary for the bacteria required for fermentation to get in it.

I thought of another question, lol. I just picked 2 more ML tomatoes that will ripen inside over the next 2-3 days. Can I just keep adding to this jar, with the juice that is in there or should I start a new jar for each time? I might need to eat more Talenti Gelato before the end of the season. I hear the empty Fudge brownie and Double Dark Chocolate containers result in better fermentation of tomato seeds.

Yes, you can add on top for a while, but dont you have enough seeds from just the one estlers? That one gave me lots of seeds, probably about 200 or so from one fruit!
I like the way you think, so yes! Gelato and brownie containers absolutely do give better fermentation!! Uh huh!

[AlittleSalt]

I had two containers I wish I had added a little water to - because I forgot them and they dried out

Yours look fine.

[SueCT]

I just don't think I can have too many Estler's Mortgage Lifter Seeds, especially since they are not currently commercially available and other people have also contacted me looking for them. They are one of my favorites and I want to make sure I have them forever. Plus, I am currently 0/1, lol. If one batch doesn't do well, maybe the next one will. Once I do this successfully I will bag blossoms in future years. I didn't get out there soon enough but I did buy the bags for next year. It is so late in the season I assume any blossoms currently will never mature. But since I still have seeds from the ones Carolyn sent me, next year I can grow those and my own and make sure they grow true, but only bag and save the ones from her seeds. This year I am still trying to learn to do it correctly. But if they germinate when I test them I can still share them with anyone who has no seeds left and wants to try them knowing they were not bagged.

And the very best fermentation is from Talenti Fudge Brownie Gelato containers!

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by SueCT

I just don't think I can have too many Estler's Mortgage Lifter Seeds, especially since they are not currently commercially available and other people have also contacted me looking for them. They are one of my favorites and I want to make sure I have them forever. Plus, I am currently 0/1, lol. If one batch doesn't do well, maybe the next one will. Once I do this successfully I will bag blossoms in future years. I didn't get out there soon enough but I did buy the bags for next year. It is so late in the season I assume any blossoms currently will never mature. But since I still have seeds from the ones Carolyn sent me, next year I can grow those and my own and make sure they grow true, but only bag and save the ones from her seeds. This year I am still trying to learn to do it correctly. But if they germinate when I test them I can still share them with anyone who has no seeds left and wants to try them knowing they were not bagged.

And the very best fermentation is from Talenti Fudge Brownie Gelato containers!

Sue, I didn't know you had any Estler seeds at all which is why you asked me to send you some seeds, and I did.<G>

Just curious but where did you got those other Estler seeds from?

Whatever, may you end up producing at least a pound of seeds, but if it were me I think I'd keep the saved seeds separate from the ones you already had from the seeds you might get from the ones I sent you. I know where the seeds I sent you came from but I don't know where your other ones came from. And if you trust your other source, then no worries, but if it were me I would still keep them separate and grow them out to see if they give you identical traits.

And if you think I'm going to post here about how you are doing your fermentation, you are totally wrong since you already have lots of folks suggesting what you might consider.

Carolyn

[Cole_Robbie]

If you're worried about your fermented seeds not being good, you can also do a batch with Oxy Clean as a back up. Here is a link to the method:
http://settfest.feldoncentral.com/2009/01/saving-seeds/

[feldon30]

Originally Posted by Cole_Robbie

If you're worried about your fermented seeds not being good, you can also do a batch with Oxy Clean as a back up. Here is a link to the method:
http://settfest.feldoncentral.com/2009/01/saving-seeds/

Thanks for posting this. I'm in the process of redoing my gardening website and the settfest domain was lost due to the notification e-mails going somewhere I wasn't checking them.

I like a seed saving process that takes 30 minutes with no smell, no flies, and no chance of drying out or having a huge mess.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Cole_Robbie

If you're worried about your fermented seeds not being good, you can also do a batch with Oxy Clean as a back up. Here is a link to the method:
http://settfest.feldoncentral.com/2009/01/saving-seeds/

I have a problem with the oxidative methods since several of us tried to find out how effective they are, whether OxyClean, Comet, etc, in removing most of the tomato pathogens from the seed coat.

Several of us tried to find data, and we could for other seeds but not tomato seeds . Pathogens for different crops are different and I think it depends on what they are and what might be useful for removal,

OTOH Dr. Helene Dillard, who I have mentioned several times here at Tville was at the USDA station in Geneva, NY and had contracts with either Heinz or Campbells, I can't remember which,documented the degree to which MOST pathogens could be removed from the seed coat by Fermentation, never ALL, since no method I know of except for the very harsh methods of TSP and HCL that some commercial seed producers use, can come close to removing ALL.

But infection is a quantitative process, so removing most pathogens does help in preventing actual disease.

While I'm on a semi rant, the efficacy of using a bleach rinse on processed seeds to remove pathogens has always escaped me as well, Yes, bleach can be and has been used to increase germination of tomato seeds, that I know.

OK, I'm done for now.

Carolyn

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by SueCT

I just don't think I can have too many Estler's Mortgage Lifter Seeds, especially since they are not currently commercially available and other people have also contacted me looking for them. They are one of my favorites and I want to make sure I have them forever. Plus, I am currently 0/1, lol. If one batch doesn't do well, maybe the next one will. Once I do this successfully I will bag blossoms in future years. I didn't get out there soon enough but I did buy the bags for next year. It is so late in the season I assume any blossoms currently will never mature. But since I still have seeds from the ones Carolyn sent me, next year I can grow those and my own and make sure they grow true, but only bag and save the ones from her seeds. This year I am still trying to learn to do it correctly. But if they germinate when I test them I can still share them with anyone who has no seeds left and wants to try them knowing they were not bagged.

And the very best fermentation is from Talenti Fudge Brownie Gelato containers!

Sue, I understand why you want to be a veritable ML Estler factory so please let me share the following with you.

This time you used only ONE fruit to try and save seeds, but each variety does exhibit some degree of genetic heterogeneity so in the future using just one fruit IMO is not the way to go.

The original directions given were to put out 4 like plants in a row and and save seeds from only the two inner ones.

But these days I think it's best to say if you have one plant, save seeds from many fruits on that plant in batch amounts including both small and large ones.

Better still is to have two plants and to save seeds for many fruits form each plant.

I used to do mine in batches,meaning, I would have a half a bushel of fruits from variety X. And I used one pint clear containers. Depending on the variety I could scoop out seeds and tomato debris from several large fruits in one container so it was about half full.More fruits to process, more pints to fill.

Many times I had fermentations going for a single variety and could have up to 5-6 individual pints fermenting at the same time.

And yes, I have saved seeds from a single fruit maybe only two times and that when I HAD only one fruit of something when there was no other place/person that had it.

When I look back at all the years I was growing several hundreds of plants and varieties I don't know how I did it. I was a teacher at the time, so while stuff was still ripening in the tomato field I'd stop by after work, bring my green sneakers and old clothes and do what needed to be done with the pints that were finished and needed processing as well as new pints to set up.

Yes, there are some of us who have been obsessed with growing tomatoes for many decades and there are no formal help groups for that obsession, except for message sites such as this one which, IMO, is THE best one.

Carolyn, who forgot to say that as to a commercial place selling seeds, i didn't check Chuck Wyatt's place, nor Google, nor Tania, but there are several who still SSE list it ( for members only) and if I have enough seeds methinks I should send some to those seed vendors that I usually do and have known for many years. My source of Estler was Neil L whois one of my seed producers and who each year sends me extras he has of varieties he's doing other than mine. Since Chuck Wyatt was the first to ge the seeds from Bob Estler andoff er it athis seedsite, Chuck died in 2002 but someone else took it over, I'm sure many folks have it buthaven't shared it. And just a few years agowhenI was participating at GW Bob's relative waslooking for seeds and both Fusion and Iofferedtosend them toher.

[SueCT]

I wonder if more gel would evaporate less quickly than water?

[ginger2778]

Originally Posted by SueCT

I wonder if more gel would evaporate less quickly than water?

Probably not, but my answer is very unscientific.