Comparisons: Spudakee, Cherokee Purple and Indian Stripe

[sjamesNorway]

This is a continuation from a thread that some of us posted in at idigmygarden, while Tomatoville was down, titled "The Classics". I have also posted a similar question in "The Versus Thread" here, but it seems to be lost there. I'm mostly looking for comparisons between two or all three varieties by those who've grown them together in the same season.

Steve

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by sjamesNorway

This is a continuation from a thread that some of us posted in at idigmygarden, while Tomatoville was down, titled "The Classics". I have also posted a similar question in "The Versus Thread" here, but it seems to be lost there. I'm mostly looking for comparisons between two or all three varieties by those who've grown them together in the same season.

Steve

Steve, either you or me could fetch that thread from idig to here if that would save you time and all you wrote there. Your choice,

But why not make it CP four ways and add Cherokee Purple Potato Leaf.?

Carolyn

[sjamesNorway]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Steve, either you or me could fetch that thread from idig to here if that would save you time and all you wrote there. Your choice,

But why not make it CP four ways and add Cherokee Purple Potato Leaf.?

Carolyn

Yes, of course Carolyn, why didn't I think of that! Here's "The Classics" thread:

http://www.idigmygarden.com/forums/s...light=Classics

And I agree with the 4-way comparisons. Let's add Cherokee Purple Potato Leaf.

Steve

[JLJ_]

Originally Posted by sjamesNorway

This is a continuation from a thread that some of us posted in at idigmygarden, while Tomatoville was down, titled "The Classics". I have also posted a similar question in "The Versus Thread" here, but it seems to be lost there. I'm mostly looking for comparisons between two or all three varieties by those who've grown them together in the same season.

Steve

I got your PM about comparisons -- thanks for taking the time. I think this thread is a good idea -- maybe good to post about it at idig, too, and to add any info you have or find to it periodically, so that the thread stays visible until later in the season when there might be additional info.

I'm planning to have a section this year with several Indian Stripe variations, plus Daniel Burson and Margaret Curtain -- the first as an IS relative and the second as one often perceived as IS similar. Don't think I'll include Cherokee Purple this year, and haven't seed for Spudakee, but based on what you've found it certainly seems as if it warrants being included in comparisons whenever that works out -- and I've seen a number of credible reports in the past of generally good performance by Spudakee -- just not much of the "same year comparison" type information.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by JLJ_

I got your PM about comparisons -- thanks for taking the time. I think this thread is a good idea -- maybe good to post about it at idig, too, and to add any info you have or find to it periodically, so that the thread stays visible until later in the season when there might be additional info.

I'm planning to have a section this year with several Indian Stripe variations, plus Daniel Burson and Margaret Curtain -- the first as an IS relative and the second as one often perceived as IS similar. Don't think I'll include Cherokee Purple this year, and haven't seed for Spudakee, but based on what you've found it certainly seems as if it warrants being included in comparisons whenever that works out -- and I've seen a number of credible reports in the past of generally good performance by Spudakee -- just not much of the "same year comparison" type information.

And of course I'll be interestged in your iS variations since I was the first to get it from Donna Nelson and spread it around and am also aware that it was called Indian Zebra by Travis, who finally stopped doing that and said he would call it Indian Stripe, and for that I was very glad.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Indian_Stripe

Carolyn, and I can't begin to tell you how many threads here and also at idig about the initial IS/IZ issue,

[JLJ_]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

And of course I'll be interestged in your iS variations since I was the first to get it from Donna Nelson and spread it around . . .

You know about my IS comparisons already from our communications last fall . . . in the last one, I think, you said that you still hadn't heard from Marina about seed from her IS Heart?

Other than that, the IS variations are just ISPL and original IS and IS Heart? from seed I grew from your 2013 seed offer and IS Heart? Marsha grew from some of my 2013 crop seed that I sent her -- my objective being to compare fruit of the IS Heart?s with the other IS's to see if there is any difference in heartiness.

Also, my primary objective this year is to compare these and several other groups of related and similar varieties -- several Brandywines, for example -- and other groups -- to see which, if any, of several highly regarded tasty varieties that no sane person would grow here might perform at least passably with a little extra help -- weather, health and voles permitting. :/

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by JLJ_

You know about my IS comparisons already from our communications last fall . . . in the last one, I think, you said that you still hadn't heard from Marina about seed from her IS Heart?

Other than that, the IS variations are just ISPL and original IS and IS Heart? from seed I grew from your 2013 seed offer and IS Heart? Marsha grew from some of my 2013 crop seed that I sent her -- my objective being to compare fruit of the IS Heart?s with the other IS's to see if there is any difference in heartiness.

Also, my primary objective this year is to compare these and several other groups of related and similar varieties -- several Brandywines, for example -- and other groups -- to see which, if any, of several highly regarded tasty varieties that no sane person would grow here might perform at least passably with a little extra help -- weather, health and voles permitting. :/

OK, it's clear to me that what you consider variations is not what I mean as to variations/

I meant the IS/IZ situation and don't consider the IS PL or the the IS heart a variation.

And no, I still haven't heard back from Marina, so maybe best to put that project aside for now and I do check if she's visited here every day, and she has not, so I have been hesitant to e-mail her again.

Carolyn

[ginger2778]

Travis, I would like to offer you some IS Heart seed, if you want seeds from me that is, which I grew out from seed given to me by JLJ, his gotten from Carolyn's seed offer.

[JLJ_]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

. . . I still haven't heard back from Marina, so maybe best to put that project aside for now . . .

Oh, I'm planning to do as I said above, weather, health etc. permitting . . . I think there is enough evidence of heartiness in Indian Stripe that there is potential for an Indian Stripe Heart that reliably produces hearts whenever and wherever it's grown . . . though I don't think we've seen it yet . . . and I'm not sure the marginal heartiness we've seen to this point can be evaluated unless Indian Stripe Potato Leaf and the original Indian Stripe Regular leaf are grown for comparison, because one can certainly see some heartish fruit in those from time to time.

I think you're right not to press it with Marina, it's easy to think of all sorts of reasons she may not have pursued the seed issue and may or may not get back to it in future.

If seed from Marina, or anyone else who's seen Indian Stripe hearts, turns up, it would be good to add to the comparison but otherwise we'll see what we'll see. I hope to at least see a reasonable amount of Indian Stripe fruit to use and to cache for winter, and as long as that happens, the space and effort isn't wasted.

And of course it may be that all we'll see is fat voles.

[JLJ_]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

OK, it's clear to me that what you consider variations is not what I mean as to variations

I meant the IS/IZ situation and don't consider the IS PL or the the IS heart a variation . . .

Yes, terminology can create confusion sometimes. Trying to define everything and avoid ambiguities is one reason I sometimes write such long posts. [g]

I'd call Indian Stripe Potato Leaf, and Heart? variations of original Indian Stripe because they are all essentially Indian Stripe but have significant and (hopefully) consistent differences in form.

But I was interested that you thought of Indian Stripe and Indian Zebra as variations, as I thought your view was that they were exactly the same thing sporting the two different names that Burson had used when referring to them -- indistinguishable from one another if not wearing nametags.

Did I misunderstand or do you think that they have diverged a bit since being distributed and grown under different names or did I understand correctly that you think Indian Stripe and Indian Zebra are the same animal wearing different hats?

[Gardeneer]

I have no current experience to share relatin to the topic. But I will grow a 4-way comparison this year, to find it first hand.

(1) CP, (2) IS (RL), (3) BLACK f TULA, (4) BLACK SEA MAN

I can already tell you than BFT was better than CP in my garden last year, production wise, taste being similar. But I am growing CP to check it vs IS.
Come August, I can do a review.

Gardeneer

[Linda10]

This is my year for growing out my favorite blacks plus many new to me. I won't be comparing Cherokee Purple because it has never done very well here. I'll try to report back here later.

[travis]

Cherokee Purple: Classic. Initiated the "heirloom" tomato movement for many folks because it was one of the first purples to become widely available as a bedding transplant from Bonnie and Chef Jeff Heirlooms.
Plant growth habit can be a bit variable from seed source to seed source, with some examples very stout, stubby, and almost determinate in pattern, and others ranging wildly up and over top of wire cages. Superior sweet, complex, deep flavor in the best examples. Fruit size also can vary from plant to plant and on the same plant with some tomatoes approaching a pound and others barely tipping the scales at three ounces. Some susceptibility to catfacing and zippering.
Cherokee Purple, when it first hit the scene appears to have been a bit unstable, as witnessed by some variations in growth habit, or subjected to outcrossing soon after it's introduction, as it also began showing flesh and skin color morphing resulting in several other lines of chocolate/maroon, amber toned green-when-ripe, and bicolor types, as well as clear yellow and clear green.
Personally, Cherokee Purple was my initial favorite, and I have used it in several crosses, as have many other backyard tomato breeders.

Indian Stripe: Repeatedly called, but never proven, "a strain of Cherokee Purple," it is indeed very similar in appearance, depending on the seed source. However, upon obtaining seeds directly from the original source, I found Indian Stripe also expresses variations in plant habit and fruit size and production. Far less susceptibility to catfacing and BER, but occasionally will zipper.
My initial seed purchase (a 2005 seed lot) was from Victory Seed Co., and those seed produced several plants that matched Carolyn Male's description of Indian Stripe to a "T." However, the same seed lot also gave me off types in pink fruit, as well as some variation in fruit shapes, plant to plant, grown side by side in 2006, including some high round shapes which upon reflection cause me to not be surprised that eventually an "Indian Stripe Heart" expressed itself in Washington State from saved seed I sent to a lady calling herself Bluelytes.
By comparison, the seeds I got from Clyde Burson, Sr.'s freezer in 2008 produced fruit in 2009 significantly larger in size and darker in color when grown side by side with the saved seed from the Victory Seed Co. germplasm.
Indian Stripe is an earlier variety than Cherokee Purple, and I have gotten ripe tomatoes in 70 days from Indian Stripe compared with Cherokee Purple in 82 days, grown in the same garden, same years. Indian Stripe, after the off-types were culled out of the seed pool, also produces more uniform fruit sizes, and has been more tolerant of Early Blight, outgrowing and staying ahead of the affliction.

Spudakee: I obtained seeds directly from Bill Malin who got them directly from his friend in Ohio in whose garden the "mutation" occurred. This line is different from the Cherokee Purple, Potato Leaf that appeared in Jere Gettle's Missouri garden about the same time.
Spudakee for me will set fruit earlier and in cooler conditions than Cherokee Purple, and will continue to set fruit in higher temps, and throughout the growing season, until it absolutely goes bonkers at the end of the season.
Spudakee is not as flavorful to me as Cherokee Purple, but is about the same as Indian Stripe with regard to fruit flavor, fruit size, days to maturity, and in respect to production, although I consistently get far more fruit production from the Spudakee seeds that I selected by saving from the original two plants I grew.

Have not grown Indian Stripe PL, and the Indian Stripe "Heart" seeds sent to me by Bluelytes had been fermented to the point that the endosperm was exposed and not viable.

[BigVanVader]

Spudakee sounds awesome.

[charley]

for me cherokee purple has the best flavor and worst production
i.s. and spudakee has alot more production but the flavor just aint there for me.
so i go to a cherokee purple grafted and get awesome taste and productin.the best of both worlds.