Is sweet sue stable?

[tash11]

I got some sweet sue seeds in a swap last year. The one plant I have now is producing beautiful pink tomatoes with little cracking. Are these mislabeled, or is this just what sweets sue does, or is it not stable?


The one that was labeled sweet Sue is on the right and middle, the little red ones are aura, and the one on the left is pit viper.


The one with the most yellow at the top right doesn't feel ripe yet but it looks the most like sweet sue is supposed to.

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[Barb_FL]

I got my seeds from 2014 MMMM swap and grew 2 plants in spring 2015. I had one plant with yellow tomatoes and one with Red/pink tomatoes.

I saved a few seeds from the red/pink tomatoes and sowed them for spring 2016. It produced red/pink tomatoes. They were the best tomatoes in the spring.

I saved seeds from the best one and am growing for the fall season. I will pay more attention this time if they are red or pink.

[tash11]

So these could be pink sweet sue? They are very pretty, and the plant is healthy.

[Scooty]

Foliage and growth pattern match the original Sweet Sue? Same fruit shape, locular cavities size, seed size?

Does it match any of the other potato leaf DTPs? There are one or two others that are pale red/pinks that I could think of that might be accidental stray seeds.

[Barb_FL]

Mine looked just like the pic Tash posted and was PL. Edited my post b/c it was from the 2014 MMMM swap.

The only other red from DWP I grew in spring of 2015 was Itidarod which was nothing like Red Sweet Sue.

Here is what it looked like cut. It was the first tomato of the 2016 spring season that I considered close to a "10".

What other's fit the description?

[tash11]

Originally Posted by Barb_FL

Mine looked just like the pic Tash posted and was PL. Edited my post b/c it was from the 2014 MMMM swap.

The only other red from DWP I grew in spring of 2015 was Itidarod which was nothing like Red Sweet Sue.

Here is what it looked like cut. It was the first tomato of the 2016 spring season that I considered close to a "10".

What other's fit the description?

On the DTP site it only lists Rosella Crimson and Arctic Rose under pink. Rosella Crimson wasn't released until 2014. It is regular rugose, and the fruit are 4-13oz.
http://dwarftomatoproject.net/Rosella-Crimson.php

It's nothing like the Arctic Rose I am growing. Which is already done and much shorter. It has regular rugose leaves.
http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Dwarf_Arctic_Rose

Sweet Adelaide is also listed as pink on Tatiana's. It has regular rugose leaves. It was also released in 2014.
http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Sweet_Adelaide

[ContainerTed]

Here's the definitive Dwarf Sweet Sue as released in 2012. What you have is a cross with ????????

Don't call it a Pink Sweet Sue. Use the word "cross". Dwarf Sweet Sue was release in 2012 and was at the F12 generation. I still grow it and have not seen the "Red/Pink" colors you show - except that there is a tiny pink blush at the blossom end which is hard to see most of the time.

Here's a picture of what you should be seeing.

[Scooty]

I had a questionable mutant red "Sean's Yellow Dwarf". It's probably the most productive of all the "red" DTPs I trialed this year. It has really prominent lobbing, like some of those italian heirlooms. Taste wise, it's just behind Sweet Scarlet as far as assertively sweet and savory.

I mailed a few ripe fruits to Craig, who also got a cutting to identify foliage pattern. What was originally thought might be Tanunda Red, Sweet Adelaide, Arctic Rose, Waratah, or an off Sweet Scarlet seem all likely to be excluded, according to Craig. It all matches Sean's Yellow Dwarf so far. Only diff is it's red. Mine was purchased seed so unlikely to be a cross. I guess I'll know in 1 more grow out how stable this is and if its 100% a mutation of the Witty line.

Someone should grow this pink/red possibly mutation of Sweet Sue out side by side with the original. If it's good, maybe Craig can release this as another DTP.

[ContainerTed]

Scooty, even commercial sites sometimes find that their seed turns out to be crossed. The Dwarf Sweet Sue above is a cross. My personal seed is at the F16 level and I have no evidence of a red or pink mutation. And, remember that I produced the release seed that went out to the vendors, with all vendors getting seed from the same large container of seeds. A change in color at this point is more likely to be a cross.

And I think we'll likely find the same to be true about Sean's Yellow Dwarf, which was at the F8 or F9 level at release. Besides the color, the red fruit you showed in that other thread has significant "lobing" or ruffled shoulders. It is either mislabeled or a cross. It might be the seed sold to you was crossed and the vendors wasn't aware.

I really like any tomato that tastes good. But we must be careful that we don't defame the original until we know for certain that a mutation has occurred. A tomato that tastes good is still good regardless of the name we give. Since mutations are extremely rare, a cross is both cases is the most likely conclusion.

[Scooty]

Originally Posted by ContainerTed

Scooty, even commercial sites sometimes find that their seed turns out to be crossed. The Dwarf Sweet Sue above is a cross. My personal seed is at the F16 level and I have no evidence of a red or pink mutation. And, remember that I produced the release seed that went out to the vendors, with all vendors getting seed from the same large container of seeds. A change in color at this point is more likely to be a cross.

And I think we'll likely find the same to be true about Sean's Yellow Dwarf, which was at the F8 or F9 level at release. Besides the color, the red fruit you showed in that other thread has significant "lobing" or ruffled shoulders. It is either mislabeled or a cross. It might be the seed sold to you was crossed and the vendors wasn't aware.

I really like any tomato that tastes good. But we must be careful that we don't defame the original until we know for certain that a mutation has occurred. A tomato that tastes good is still good regardless of the name we give. Since mutations are extremely rare, a cross is both cases is the most likely conclusion.

But as you yourself pointed out "A change in color at this point is more likely to be a cross." More likely =! absolutely. It's possible it's a chance mutation. Though, I agree that it's highly unlikely to be instability.

No idea on my "suspect mutant." The lobbing were all fused fruits. Craig got a box full of ripe fruits. He's the one considering releasing it, not me. I'll leave him to decide that.

I have no way to know if its a cross or back mutation. Though, Craig seems to believe it's not a cross. He considers it possibly some genetic "noise" as he puts it in the Witty line. We'll know for sure in another grow out or two.

Also as Caroyln pointed out in another thread on identifying cross vs mutation:

Originally Posted by carolyn137

If there has been a cross pollination,then saving seeds and putting out several plants will show genetic segregation with perhaps different colored fruits,different leaf forms,internode differences,ect.It all depends on what the two parents were. But if the original seeds were true,and NOT X pollinated then all plants will be like the original.

If you want to see what happens when a non heart is deliberately crossed with a heart,then please go to Karen's thread where she discusses this a lot and shows the results.

[Fred Hempel]

I think this thread is an interesting example of what happens when you have people releasing things, willy nilly, with names when they are not yet stabilized.

I am a proponent of only naming after at least F7 or F8 AND stability.

Clearly that is what the dwarf project accomplished with their lines. There should not even be a question as to whether Sweet Sue is stable. The dwarf project folks should not have to deal with questions about whether or not they released stable lines. As Ted has clearly pointed out, they knew what they were doing.

This is also a clear example of the risks involved with trading. Trades, done by amateurs with wildly different standards are always risky. If you like risk and you like surprises, trades are great! For every person ★★★★ed off about a "surprise" there are folks that are excited by them.

One last thing -- because there are typically no standards for seed hygiene in trades, you are also risking disease with trades.

I talked about this at the Heirloom Expo on Tuesday.

My suggestion was that before you plant traded seed -- if you want to reduce disease risk -- you should use a 10% bleach, organic peroxide and/or heat treatment to kill potential bacterial or viral pathogens.

It is a big, wide world of tomato growing out there, and there are diseases, known and not yet known traveling via seed. Protect your seed stash!

[Scooty]

Originally Posted by Fred Hempel

I think this thread is an interesting example of what happens when you have people releasing things, willy nilly, with names when they are not yet stabilized.

I am a proponent of only naming after at least F7 or F8 AND stability.

Clearly that is what the dwarf project accomplished with their lines. There should not even be a question as to whether Sweet Sue is stable. The dwarf project folks should not have to deal with questions about whether or not they released stable lines. As Ted has clearly pointed out, they knew what they were doing.

This is also a clear example of the risks involved with trading. Trades, done by amateurs with wildly different standards are always risky. If you like risk and you like surprises, trades are great! For every person ★★★★ed off about a "surprise" there are folks that are excited by them.

One last thing -- because there are typically no standards for seed hygiene in trades, you are also risking disease with trades.

I talked about this at the Heirloom Expo on Tuesday.

My suggestion was that before you plant traded seed -- if you want to reduce disease risk -- you should use a 10% bleach, organic peroxide and/or heat treatment to kill potential bacterial or viral pathogens.

It is a big, wide world of tomato growing out there, and there are diseases, known and not yet known traveling via seed. Protect your seed stash!

But to play devil's advocate, this isn't necessarily a clear example of instability. The Sweet Sue that I grew bred true. So did the those by ContainerTed and others.

We also don't know for sure if this is a clear case of "willy nilly" releases/trades. Barb never traded her "Pink Sweet Sue" or "Sweet Sue x Pink Unknown cross." Nor do we know the exact circumstances of the person who gave tash11 their seeds in 2015. We also don't know the circumstances of the person who gave Barb her seeds in 2014.

This could be the result of two people independently discovering the same or similar mutation. If it is indeed a cross, it should be an easy to identify, as we're not looking at two red beefsteaks possibly crossing. We'd be dealing with a cross between a white/yellow x red. If Barb grew her's out in 2014, and it's still breeding true now, then it's unlikely a cross. The same situation that ContainerTed came across when he was segregated and selecting his Big Sungold OP. If anyone has grown out Sungold, we all know the colors that pop up even at F6 - red, yellow, orange.

This could just as well be an example of a chance mutation. The same chance mutation that leads to something new in indeterminate heirlooms that have a much longer history. Statistically, one would think that the chances for DTP mutations should be lower given a smaller consumer base, but that doesn't exclude the possibility of an outlier in a smaller sample size.

My situation was also different. Remy is one of a handful of vendors (less than 5) to be selected to sell DTP tomatoes from initial release. These seeds or seeds from subsequent grow outs have a direct lineage from Craig. They passed through absolutely zero trades. Nor was there a vendor to vendor transfer.

There is also the possibility that we're looking at three completely different situations, where one is a misidentification, another a cross, and another a mutation. Given another generation or two, we'll be able to eliminate either the cross or mutation as a possibility. I grew out something like 30+ DTPs this year (there are something like 60+ total DTP releases). I didn't trust my own judgement to be able to identify my "mutant" as possibly another DTP that I didn't grow. That's why I mailed a box of ripe fruits to Craig. Given he's familiar with all the DTP releases, I'm fairly confident when he tells me something is not an existing variety.

Disease is a whole other concern, one quite valid, when discussing trades.

[Gardeneer]

Originally Posted by Fred Hempel

I think this thread is an interesting example of what happens when you have people releasing things, willy nilly, with names when they are not yet stabilized.

I am a proponent of only naming after at least F7 or F8 AND stability.

Clearly that is what the dwarf project accomplished with their lines. There should not even be a question as to whether Sweet Sue is stable. The dwarf project folks should not have to deal with questions about whether or not they released stable lines. As Ted has clearly pointed out, they knew what they were doing.

This is also a clear example of the risks involved with trading. Trades, done by amateurs with wildly different standards are always risky. If you like risk and you like surprises, trades are great! For every person ★★★★ed off about a "surprise" there are folks that are excited by them.

One last thing -- because there are typically no standards for seed hygiene in trades, you are also risking disease with trades.

I talked about this at the Heirloom Expo on Tuesday.

My suggestion was that before you plant traded seed -- if you want to reduce disease risk -- you should use a 10% bleach, organic peroxide and/or heat treatment to kill potential bacterial or viral pathogens.

It is a big, wide world of tomato growing out there, and there are diseases, known and not yet known traveling via seed. Protect your seed stash!

Good points, Fred.

[tash11]

The plant I have is potato rugose, about 2.5' at this point. I take back the healthy comment from earlier, that was the plant next to it. Otherwise similar to Sweet Scarlet that I have, except the fruit. The fruit are pink, 2.75-5.25oz. I haven't cut any yet. I was confused and waiting until I had a min to post pics here.

I checked the label the seeds came with. It's a pink one that says "sweet sue '12", I think the little pink tags were Gary right?

[Scooty]

Originally Posted by tash11

The plant I have is potato rugose, about 2.5' at this point. I take back the healthy comment from earlier, that was the plant next to it. Otherwise similar to Sweet Scarlet that I have, except the fruit. The fruit are pink, 2.75-5.25oz. I haven't cut any yet. I was confused and waiting until I had a min to post pics here.

I checked the label the seeds came with. It's a pink one that says "sweet sue '12", I think the little pink tags were Gary right?

You'd have to confirm with Gary. I've never participated in the seed swap. Maybe he'd know who used what color tags.