So, what's new in tomato culture

[ContainerTed]

I use a lot of The Gutenberg Project free books in my Nook. Lately, I've been collecting gardening books and most are very old. You can find out a lot about tomato history and stuff you don't hear or see anywhere else. Here's an example of how we think we might know when certain type of tomatoes came to be.

This is from The Project Gutenberg EBook of Tomato Culture by Will W. Tracy, Published in 1907. In the beginning of Chapter 2, I found this to be an interesting discussion of tomato colors and shapes.

=================================================

"=Different types now common=, according to Sturtevant, have become known
to, and been described by Europeans in about the following order:

1. Large yellow, described by Matthiolus in 1554 and called Golden apple.

2. Large red, described by Matthiolus in 1554 and called Love apple.

3. Purple red, described by D'el Obel in 1570.

4. White-fleshed, described by Dodoens in 1586.

5. Red cherry, described by Bauhin in 1620.

6. Yellow cherry, described by Bauhin in 1620.

7. Ochre yellow, described by Bauhin in 1651.

8. Striped, blotched or visi-colored, described by Bauhin in 1651.

9. Pale red, described by Tournefort in 1700.

10. Large smooth, or ribless red, described by Tournefort in 1700.

11. Bronzed-leaved, described by Blacknell in 1750.

12. Deep orange, described by Bryant in 1783.

13. Pear-shaped, described by Dunal in 1805.

14. Tree tomato, described by Vilmorin in 1855.

15. Broad-leaved, introduced about 1860.

The special description of No. 10 by Tournefort in 1700 would indicate
that large smooth sorts, like Livingston's Stone, were in existence
fully 200 years ago, instead of being modern improvements, as is
sometimes claimed; and a careful study of old descriptions and cuts and
comparing them with the best examples of modern varieties led Doctor
Sturtevant in 1889 to express the opinion that they had fruit as large
and smooth as those we now grow, before the tomato came into general use
in America, and possibly before the fruit was generally known to
Europeans."

And we all thought striped tomatoes were something new.

[NarnianGarden]

Many thanks for that piece of tomato development history! It's fascinating to see different shapes and colors mentioned already in the 16th century.Seems like whites and purples aren't such recent mutations.

[ContainerTed]

You're welcome. I'm still fascinated that the above was written in 1907. I'm still not that trusting of modern day main stream historians. I think there's a bunch of history books that have to be "re-written" with the real truth.

[AlittleSalt]

That is very interesting, and I agree that true history facts get lost along the way.

I would have thought the Love Apple would have been named that in the mid to late 1960s

[ContainerTed]

Originally Posted by AlittleSalt

That is very interesting, and I agree that true history facts get lost along the way.

I would have thought the Love Apple would have been named that in the mid to late 1960s

And I thought it was more likely from the Victorian Era.

[carolyn137]

Ted, if you look at one of the better histories of the tomato I know you'll see the explanation for most of what's on your list

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomato

Go to the history section and Spanish distribution to see how small yellow tomatoes were distributed, and known to be taken back to Spain and whatever, and red ones were then taken to Italy as well as yellow ones.

And you'll see the references above for Mattoli/us and his golden apple one,etc.

Back then the countries of Spain and Portugal were one country so it's there that the greatest biological diversity of tomatoes has developed over the centuries via X pollinations and mutations.

Which is the reason that I and others are fascinated with the HUGE numbers of Spanish varieties available now.

Those who have looked for old ones and grown them and made some available but in different ways include

Ilex,in Spain,from whom I have many,
Baikal in Spain,from the island of Mallorca,who was the primary seed source to Vladimir in the Czech Republic and his huge Spanish project, where he showed pictures.

And if you follow Gerardo's long thread you'll see pictures of more since I shared with him many of the ones I got from Ilex.Gerardo is doing seed production for me and others of my seed producers are doing other varieties from Ilex.

Since Ilex is a listed SSE member he now lists close to 90 varieties ,I pay him a very reasonable price,he sends.He had to do that if he was going to distribute seeds seeds since EU restrictions in Spain won't allow him to sell seeds there.

The only way to help preserve varieties is to have them grown,seeds saved and shared and yes,other SSE members are getting seeds from him as well since he lists other stuff as well.

By the early 1700's tomato seeds were already in the US, see that in the initial link above.

Finally,woe to me whose 17 plants in the backyard were THE worst ones that Freda ever grew for me, not her fault.I had most of the new ones that Bill Jeffers had bred, some Spanish ones as well,especially the Ribera one

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=34658&page=4

Post 47

Yes,I got one Daniel Burson,one Sheryl's Portuguese Red Heart,one Dester, some good cherry tomatoes that Freda brings in,but that's it.

It makes a grown woman want to

Carolyn

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Back then the countries of Spain and Portugal were one country so it's there that the greatest biological diversity of tomatoes has developed over the centuries via X pollinations and mutations.
Carolyn

I beg to differ on that one my friend.
Isabella of Castile was married to Ferdinand of Aragon and those two countries became known as Spain.
And they were at constant odds with Portugal.
Columbus first asked Portugal King John II to fund his trip to the Indies and was turned down several times, He then asked if he would be allowed to leave which he did.

In 1494 the Treaty of Tordesillas formed the Tordesillas line that circled the entire globe.
Everything in the west belonged to Spain known as the crown of Castile and everything in the east belonged to Portugal.
That line ran right through what is now known as Brazil and is the reason it was settled be by the Portuguese and not Spain.
And one of the reasons Vasco da Gama sailed around the Cape of good hope and becoming the first European ship to ever enter the Indian ocean in 1497.

Portugal was founded 1139 after the Muslims/Moors were kicked out after a rule since 711
If Columbus would have been funded by Portugal is is very likely he would have never been seen again lost at sea fighting the winds.
As he would have sailed from the Azores and not the Canary islands.
As luck would have it the winds were in his favor to drop him right in the middle of the East Indies

As for the tomatoes, I have always known or suspected that many types were brought over as well as the peppers.

Worth

[Worth1]

This place in America was an empire with a central government and everything several to be more accurate.
They had gardens all over the place and many years to develop plants for their needs.
I bet they had all kinds of tomatoes and peppers.
On top of that most of the folks didn't eat meat or if so not much at all.
What we see today as a jungle wasn't like that back then.
Sure they had human sacrifice and kicked a few kings down the steps tied in a ball.
But that doesn't make them any more a savage than the Europeans of the time.
During this same period the Europeans were burning people at the stake skinning them alive and packing countless folks in buildings and burning them all, men women and children.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Worth1

I beg to differ on that one my friend.
Isabella of Castile was married to Ferdinand of Aragon and those two countries became known as Spain.
And they were at constant odds with Portugal.
Columbus first asked Portugal King John II to fund his trip to the Indies and was turned down several times, He then asked if he would be allowed to leave which he did.

In 1494 the Treaty of Tordesillas formed the Tordesillas line that circled the entire globe.
Everything in the west belonged to Spain known as the crown of Castile and everything in the east belonged to Portugal.
That line ran right through what is now known as Brazil and is the reason it was settled be by the Portuguese and not Spain.
And one of the reasons Vasco da Gama sailed around the Cape of good hope and becoming the first European ship to ever enter the Indian ocean in 1497.

Portugal was founded 1139 after the Muslims/Moors were kicked out after a rule since 711
If Columbus would have been funded by Portugal is is very likely he would have never been seen again lost at sea fighting the winds.
As he would have sailed from the Azores and not the Canary islands.
As luck would have it the winds were in his favor to drop him right in the middle of the East Indies

As for the tomatoes, I have always known or suspected that many types were brought over as well as the peppers.

Worth

Worth,much of what you posted is correct,but please read the following link and note when the EMPIRES of Portugal and Spain were joined.

(The Portuguese and Spanish Empires came under a single rule, but resistance to Spanish rule in Portugal did not come to an end. The Prior of Crato held out in the Azores until 1583, and he continued to seek to recover the throne actively until his death in 1595. Impostors claimed to be King Sebastian in 1584, 1585, 1595 and 1598. "Sebastianism", the myth that the young king will return to Portugal on a foggy day, has prevailed until modern times.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Portugal

And as I recall they were still one area, not two,when Cortez brought back those yellow small tomatoes from South America.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=cortez

Carolyn

[clara]

Did you know that the "Love Apples" were at first forbidden for young girls/women? LOL!

[ContainerTed]

Hey, Carolyn. I have gathered more than 50 books and other documents that come from the time periods of 1820 up to about 1910. Right now, I'm trying to gather the documents/books/ pamphlets, or whatever in many of the references given out in several books - including Smith's book which I really enjoyed. Lot of history there.

I like this book by Will Tracey because it contains a lot of pictures of old paintings of tomato plants - some dating back to the 16th century. I've found some (new to me) books that add to the picture of how the tomato was taken to the rest of the world. For anyone interested, you can do a search at the Gutenberg website and get long lists of free books - mostly older ones that have been hidden away for decades.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by ContainerTed

Hey, Carolyn. I have gathered more than 50 books and other documents that come from the time periods of 1820 up to about 1910. Right now, I'm trying to gather the documents/books/ pamphlets, or whatever in many of the references given out in several books - including Smith's book which I really enjoyed. Lot of history there.

I like this book by Will Tracey because it contains a lot of pictures of old paintings of tomato plants - some dating back to the 16th century. I've found some (new to me) books that add to the picture of how the tomato was taken to the rest of the world. For anyone interested, you can do a search at the Gutenberg website and get long lists of free books - mostly older ones that have been hidden away for decades.

Good grief,I was reading too fast and missed the fact that you already read Andy's book. But for others who don't know it,I'll just leave the info here.

Have you considered buying the book by Andy Smith on the History and culture of the tomato?IMO the appendix alone is worth the price of the book.

Woodcut pictures from Italy,other pictures as well,a good history of the tomato and so much more, also history of the tomato in America/USA and rated 4 stars as I recall.

https://www.amazon.com/Tomato-Americ.../dp/1570030006

And now the links

https://www.google.com/search?q=andr..._AUIBygA&dpr=1

Please do consider getting it to add to your other sources b/c again,IMO Andy,who I once knew well,as did Craig L,does have some unique info in that book.

Carolyn, also note Andy's background and the other books he also wrote.

[ContainerTed]

I already have Andy's book. I bought it in the same time period I bought yours. When the Gutenberg Project does a book, it will list "all of the book" page by page complete with Bibliographies, Introductions, dedications, illustrations, Publisher, copyright, Publish date of the book used to digitize, edition number, table of contents, Index, illustrations, Preface, and bottom of the page notes and references. In other words, they do the entire original book.

Smith did a good job, but, in the end, he is only one source, and I've never been satisfied with one person dictating how history is written. So, I look at all the offerings and decide just how much one person or another will influence my opinion. Will Tracey quotes a whole bunch of PHD's at some upscale universities and is a refreshing approach to the subject.

Take care and don't feed the bears. They might tell Bigfoot where you live.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by ContainerTed

I already have Andy's book. I bought it in the same time period I bought yours. When the Gutenberg Project does a book, it will list "all of the book" page by page complete with Bibliographies, Introductions, dedications, illustrations, Publisher, copyright, Publish date of the book used to digitize, edition number, table of contents, Index, illustrations, Preface, and bottom of the page notes and references. In other words, they do the entire original book.

Smith did a good job, but, in the end, he is only one source, and I've never been satisfied with one person dictating how history is written. So, I look at all the offerings and decide just how much one person or another will influence my opinion. Will Tracey quotes a whole bunch of PHD's at some upscale universities and is a refreshing approach to the subject.

Take care and don't feed the bears. They might tell Bigfoot where you live.

Ted,I did not see that Andy was dictating anything,rather,just reporting back in book form his own research in the area as many before him have done in various areas..

And I'm not so sure I'd believe Ph.D's,however many, can always be objective,regardless of the Universities they are associated with since the only Ph.D's I know,such as Dr.David Francis at Ohio State University,have their own objectives in what they want to accomplish in their breeding programs.

The best Ph.D I know and have known him for a long time is Dr.Randy Gardner, formerly of the University of NC ,now retired,but still actively breeding tomatoes.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Dr+R..._AUIBygA&dpr=1

I used to send him heirloom varieties ,he asked for them,to incorporate in his breeding programs and also trialed some varieties for him and Darrel (Fusion)also knows him well as does Tom Wagner since Randy was very generous in sending some of his germplasm to others.Randy was the one who bred the very popular Mountain series,and the first F1 that had a bit of tolerance for Early Blight,and several more.

Also the one who more recently bred Mountain Magic, Plum Regal and I can't remember the third one right now, all F1's and MM was the one that I and many others loved the best as to taste and many have now used it in their own breeding programs b/c of all the tolerance disease genes and other genes that were bred into it.

https://www.google.com/search?q=moun..._AUIBygA&dpr=1

I couldn't believe it when Randy sent me huge amts for all three and I made a separate seed offer for them here at Tville,where many got them. He had contracted with Bejo to do the seed production for all 3 but there were problems,which is why he sent those seeds to me so that others could experience them.

Eventually Bejo got the seed production done and they showed up everywhere such as Johnny's,Territorial TGS and many more places also.

So,as for me and my tribe,I don't equate having a Ph.D in this area as always being objective.

Whatever,I was just trying to help.

Carolyn

[ContainerTed]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Ted,I did not see that Andy was dictating anything,rather,just reporting back in book form his own research in the area as many before him have done in various areas..

And I'm not so sure I'd believe Ph.D's,however many, can always be objective,regardless of the Universities they are associated with since the only Ph.D's I know,such as Dr.David Francis at Ohio State University,have their own objectives in what they want to accomplish in their breeding programs.

The best Ph.D I know and have known him for a long time is Dr.Randy Gardner, formerly of the University of NC ,now retired,but still actively breeding tomatoes.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Dr+R..._AUIBygA&dpr=1

I used to send him heirloom varieties ,he asked for them,to incorporate in his breeding programs and also trialed some varieties for him and Darrel (Fusion)also knows him well as does Tom Wagner since Randy was very generous in sending some of his germplasm to others.Randy was the one who bred the very popular Mountain series,and the first F1 that had a bit of tolerance for Early Blight,and several more.

Also the one who more recently bred Mountain Magic, Plum Regal and I can't remember the third one right now, all F1's and MM was the one that I and many others loved the best as to taste and many have now used it in their own breeding programs b/c of all the tolerance disease genes and other genes that were bred into it.

https://www.google.com/search?q=moun..._AUIBygA&dpr=1

I couldn't believe it when Randy sent me huge amts for all three and I made a separate seed offer for them here at Tville,where many got them. He had contracted with Bejo to do the seed production for all 3 but there were problems,which is why he sent those seeds to me so that others could experience them.

Eventually Bejo got the seed production done and they showed up everywhere such as Johnny's,Territorial TGS and many more places also.

So,as for me and my tribe,I don't equate having a Ph.D in this area as always being objective.

Whatever,I was just trying to help.

Carolyn

Well, Carolyn, we are both saying the same thing. Most of the books I've found have references and so forth, but I said that about the PHD's just to emphasize that Will Tracey was not just a "good ole boy" talking over his head. And, I just don't think that Smith is the sole authority on the history of the tomato. I believe there are "some" facts in all the documents and books, and I just think that I can isolate those facts better if I expose myself to more than one opinion. Smith was good, but he is just one piece of the puzzle.

BTW, I follow Randy on Facebook. He's got some new stuff in both tomatoes and Peppers that are gorgeous.