Water issue or something else?

D.J. Wolf · March 22, 2021

Ok, I've had a problem here in Illinois primarily with my squash type plants that I never had in Montana when I was living there. Even with my zucchini, which I've had pretty good luck with in spite of everything, I tend to get a lot of fruit that start to grow, look good, and then suddenly rot on the blossom end before being anywhere near big enough to pick. It was pretty bad last year, none of my squash or melon type plants produced near what I thought they should have. This affected pumpkins, yellow summer squash, crook necks, zucchini, cucumbers, even watermelon.

As I was working on laying out the garden yesterday, I got to thinking about it. It actually kept me up last night with thoughts running though my head. Could it be the chlorine in the city water that would cause this? Soil here is better than what it was in Montana, and I fertilize the same way, so I don't think it's that. Last year was a rough year for anything, with 2 late freezes in May, then dry dry dry all summer.

So two questions for the experts here I guess. 1...Can chlorine in the water cause blossom end rot in squash/melons? And 2...if it can, what is people recommendation for removing chlorine from city water when used for irrigation through a soaker or weepy hose setup?

zipcode · March 22, 2021

Considering they used to use calcium CaCl as a way to remedy ber, I'm inclined to think Cl is not the problem. The usual way one gets rid of it, is to let the water sit in a basin overnight. Not sure how you could do it 'live'.

Zucchini uses big amounts of nutrients, its always worth a shot to add some calcium source, it's possible it's somewhat lacking in this soil.

biscuitridge · March 22, 2021

Sounds like BER ,either your watering isn't consistent or there's a lack of calcium or another nutrient that is high and is blocking the uptake of calcium.

brownrexx · March 22, 2021

Lack of pollination can cause this and it usually happens to my first squash but after a week or two they start developing normally.

Try hand pollinating a few female flowers and see if they develop into mature squash.

BER is usually not caused by lack of calcium in the soil. It is caused by an inability to take up the calcium that is already there. Low pH, low temperatures and uneven watering can cause calcium to be unavailable.

D.J. Wolf · March 23, 2021

Ok, thanks for the great information everyone. After reading the replies, I'm going to guess that it was/is a combination of poor pollination and uneven watering. Hoping to see a lot more pollinators around this summer last year was rough for everything. We also were in what I would consider a major drought last year, May gave us 2" of rain opposed to an average of 6", and then it really shut off. Add to that I was planting for my first year in this spot, I had a lot against me. Oh, and 2 late freezes where I had to cover all my tomatoes and squash.

This year is already looking better, I've got an actual map of what will be planted where, already have a lot of the soaker hoses I'll need on hand, things like that.

Once I get things planted, I'll probably start a thread to update how their doing.

brownrexx · March 24, 2021

Good luck. It really is RARE for soil to be calcium deficient. My own soil has a huge excess of calcium but I still have withered tiny squash at the beginning of the season and if I try to grow Roma tomatoes I get BER every time. Obviously it is not a lack of calcium causing these problems.

Milan HP · March 24, 2021

I totally agree. It's not the lack of calcium in the soil that causes BER. It's the ability of the plant's roots to absorb calcium. And there are several factors that reduce or even stop this. I don't know the right order, but they are: high temperature of the soil, excess of nitrogen, excess of potassium and perhaps also sodium. There may be some more that I am not aware of.
What makes me say so? I used to add finely ground dolomite in my pot mixture and it didn't help when the weather was really hot. Then a colder year came and lo and behold, no BER in my plants (tomatoes and peppers). And that year I stopped adding any calcium in the soil. Now I know I have to shade my containers so that they don't get overheated. I'll see what happens. And I also noticed that cherry tomatoes never suffered from BER. Only the bigger ones, most notably beefsteaks.
Milan HP

D.J. Wolf · March 24, 2021

Quote:

Originally Posted by Milan HP

I totally agree. It's not the lack of calcium in the soil that causes BER. It's the ability of the plant's roots to absorb calcium. And there are several factors that reduce or even stop this. I don't know the right order, but they are: high temperature of the soil, excess of nitrogen, excess of potassium and perhaps also sodium. There may be some more that I am not aware of.
What makes me say so? I used to add finely ground dolomite in my pot mixture and it didn't help when the weather was really hot. Then a colder year came and lo and behold, no BER in my plants (tomatoes and peppers). And that year I stopped adding any calcium in the soil. Now I know I have to shade my containers so that they don't get overheated. I'll see what happens. And I also noticed that cherry tomatoes never suffered from BER. Only the bigger ones, most notably beefsteaks.
Milan HP

Funny thing is I NEVER have had BER problems with tomatoes. Like never. Here's my thoughts on nitrogen, as an old farmer. You are much better off with too much N than too little N. Stunted, lighter green foliage, reduced yields, and low disease resistance can all be at least partially traced back to not enough N. Yes, you can overdo it. But N is also one of the easiest nutrients to lose out of your soil. Too much water will leach N out faster than you can put it in! Also, the more plant growth you have, the more N is required. When I worked on an irrigated farm/ranch in Montana, we had to pump N on through the irrigation just after wheat flowered, or we would have had much lower yields, and a drastic reduction in protein.

All that said, I understand that perhaps some plants do not need as much N as wheat, barley, safflower, etc. I'm for sure not a soil scientist, I base my knowledge off of what I have learned from practical experience in the past. I try really hard not to go overboard, and don't think that N is the problem, especially since I tend to dump more on the tomatoes than on the squash lol (except zucchini).

Last year, high heat could have been a major contributing factor. So could have been uneven or not often enough watering. Lack of pollination may have been a contributing factor as well, not sure. I know last year was a rough year here. High 80's and 90's all summer, much lower humidity than normal, a lot less rainfall than normal, late freezes, you name it we had it it seemed.

Anyway, Milan, I'm not saying you are wrong. I am just saying I don't think that excess N was my problem, although I considered that. But the fact that my tomatoes had no BER problem where the squash, pumpkins, and watermelon did, coupled with the fact that more fertilizer was put on the tomatoes, leads me to believe that this was not the problem. Sorry I got so long winded, ramblings of an old farmer tend to do that

Milan HP · March 25, 2021

Hello,
okay, you have no problems with BER in tomatoes, but the other plants are different. You infer that nitrogen isn't a problem with tomatoes. None at all. So, what's wrong with the other plants? What do you think the main cause is? Clearly it isn't an insufficient amount of calcium in the soil as your tomatoes are okay - in my experience they suffer from BER more than zucchini or squash. Why is it the other way round in your case? You say there was a bad year last year, how come it didn't affect tomatoes as well? And what do you do to prevent or at least reduce BER in the other plants? There is a reason, why watermelons, squash and pumpkins couldn't absorb enough calcium and tomatoes could. A factor that didn't affect toms, only the other plants. Any suspicions?

Milan HP

D.J. Wolf · March 25, 2021

Milan,

I'm guessing a combination of higher heat, not enough watering, and poor pollination. So, hopefully not as hot this year, and more bees around

Milan HP · March 26, 2021

Hello,
yes, heat is my main suspect, too. Definitely with tomatoes, that's why I always plant cabbage south of my tomatoes so that the soil isn't overheated. It really reduces BER occurrence in them. But zucchini and pumpkins, etc. do that job for themselves as they have large leaves that cover the ground. And those in my garden actually developed BER (if it was BER) only in Sep or later. I keep thinking about that, but no clear conclusions yet.

Milan HP

March 22, 2021	#1
D.J. Wolf Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2021 Location: Illinois Posts: 199	Water issue or something else? Ok, I've had a problem here in Illinois primarily with my squash type plants that I never had in Montana when I was living there. Even with my zucchini, which I've had pretty good luck with in spite of everything, I tend to get a lot of fruit that start to grow, look good, and then suddenly rot on the blossom end before being anywhere near big enough to pick. It was pretty bad last year, none of my squash or melon type plants produced near what I thought they should have. This affected pumpkins, yellow summer squash, crook necks, zucchini, cucumbers, even watermelon. As I was working on laying out the garden yesterday, I got to thinking about it. It actually kept me up last night with thoughts running though my head. Could it be the chlorine in the city water that would cause this? Soil here is better than what it was in Montana, and I fertilize the same way, so I don't think it's that. Last year was a rough year for anything, with 2 late freezes in May, then dry dry dry all summer. So two questions for the experts here I guess. 1...Can chlorine in the water cause blossom end rot in squash/melons? And 2...if it can, what is people recommendation for removing chlorine from city water when used for irrigation through a soaker or weepy hose setup?

March 22, 2021	#2
zipcode Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Romania/Germany , z 4-6 Posts: 1,582	Considering they used to use calcium CaCl as a way to remedy ber, I'm inclined to think Cl is not the problem. The usual way one gets rid of it, is to let the water sit in a basin overnight. Not sure how you could do it 'live'. Zucchini uses big amounts of nutrients, its always worth a shot to add some calcium source, it's possible it's somewhat lacking in this soil.

March 22, 2021	#3
biscuitridge Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: washington Posts: 498	Sounds like BER ,either your watering isn't consistent or there's a lack of calcium or another nutrient that is high and is blocking the uptake of calcium.

March 22, 2021	#4
brownrexx Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Southeastern PA Posts: 1,420	Lack of pollination can cause this and it usually happens to my first squash but after a week or two they start developing normally. Try hand pollinating a few female flowers and see if they develop into mature squash. BER is usually not caused by lack of calcium in the soil. It is caused by an inability to take up the calcium that is already there. Low pH, low temperatures and uneven watering can cause calcium to be unavailable.

March 23, 2021	#5
D.J. Wolf Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2021 Location: Illinois Posts: 199	Ok, thanks for the great information everyone. After reading the replies, I'm going to guess that it was/is a combination of poor pollination and uneven watering. Hoping to see a lot more pollinators around this summer last year was rough for everything. We also were in what I would consider a major drought last year, May gave us 2" of rain opposed to an average of 6", and then it really shut off. Add to that I was planting for my first year in this spot, I had a lot against me. Oh, and 2 late freezes where I had to cover all my tomatoes and squash. This year is already looking better, I've got an actual map of what will be planted where, already have a lot of the soaker hoses I'll need on hand, things like that. Once I get things planted, I'll probably start a thread to update how their doing.

March 24, 2021	#6
brownrexx Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Southeastern PA Posts: 1,420	Good luck. It really is RARE for soil to be calcium deficient. My own soil has a huge excess of calcium but I still have withered tiny squash at the beginning of the season and if I try to grow Roma tomatoes I get BER every time. Obviously it is not a lack of calcium causing these problems.

March 24, 2021	#7
Milan HP Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2017 Location: Ústí nad Labem in the north of the Czech Republic Posts: 332	I totally agree. It's not the lack of calcium in the soil that causes BER. It's the ability of the plant's roots to absorb calcium. And there are several factors that reduce or even stop this. I don't know the right order, but they are: high temperature of the soil, excess of nitrogen, excess of potassium and perhaps also sodium. There may be some more that I am not aware of. What makes me say so? I used to add finely ground dolomite in my pot mixture and it didn't help when the weather was really hot. Then a colder year came and lo and behold, no BER in my plants (tomatoes and peppers). And that year I stopped adding any calcium in the soil. Now I know I have to shade my containers so that they don't get overheated. I'll see what happens. And I also noticed that cherry tomatoes never suffered from BER. Only the bigger ones, most notably beefsteaks. Milan HP

March 25, 2021	#9
Milan HP Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2017 Location: Ústí nad Labem in the north of the Czech Republic Posts: 332	Hello, okay, you have no problems with BER in tomatoes, but the other plants are different. You infer that nitrogen isn't a problem with tomatoes. None at all. So, what's wrong with the other plants? What do you think the main cause is? Clearly it isn't an insufficient amount of calcium in the soil as your tomatoes are okay - in my experience they suffer from BER more than zucchini or squash. Why is it the other way round in your case? You say there was a bad year last year, how come it didn't affect tomatoes as well? And what do you do to prevent or at least reduce BER in the other plants? There is a reason, why watermelons, squash and pumpkins couldn't absorb enough calcium and tomatoes could. A factor that didn't affect toms, only the other plants. Any suspicions? Milan HP

March 26, 2021	#11
Milan HP Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2017 Location: Ústí nad Labem in the north of the Czech Republic Posts: 332	Hello, yes, heat is my main suspect, too. Definitely with tomatoes, that's why I always plant cabbage south of my tomatoes so that the soil isn't overheated. It really reduces BER occurrence in them. But zucchini and pumpkins, etc. do that job for themselves as they have large leaves that cover the ground. And those in my garden actually developed BER (if it was BER) only in Sep or later. I keep thinking about that, but no clear conclusions yet. Milan HP