Advice on results from soil test

LindyAdele · April 13, 2015

Hi - So, I am sure getting a professional soil test is the absolute best thing, but in Canada we don't have extension offices to do it free, and the local lab I contacted was going to be very expensive. So I got one of the Rapitest at-home test kits.

My results on two different soil samples from two of my four raised beds is

ph - 7.0
N - depleated
P - off the charts excess
K - normal

water settling tests show that I have silty loam, with almost no clay. It is very very rich with worms.

I have grown tomatoes in these two beds for the last three years. I put in biochar and gaia's green rock dust the first year I put in the beds, with 3-way dirt I ordered from a landscape company. My tomatoes grow huge plants, lettuce, eggplant, peppers and cucs all do wonderfully but I have trouble growing beans. I have been trying to 'fix' my soil because it seems grey and dusty by July. I normally mix in leaves in the fall, and add a bag of manure and a bag of compost in the spring, in addition to bone meal and chicken poop. I am trying to do things the right way this year, instead of just adding all the amendments I can think of.

Clearly, I shouldn't add any more manure this year. I need to do something to lower the P and up my N. I was thinking of inter-planting bush beans this year.

Any other ideas or advice? I am expecting most of you to tell me to get a 'real' test, which I just can't really afford.

Redbaron · April 13, 2015

I would suggest you need no inputs at all. You have been over doing it. There is plenty of nitrogen locked up in organic matter that will release during the growing season. Those tests only measure the water soluble fraction, not the total. To make sure you keep a steady supply all you really need is to companion plant with a legume...maybe try bush beans?

LindyAdele · April 13, 2015

Oh! Thanks for responding. I think I have been assuming my soil was bad because it never looks as great at stuff out of a bag. It's always grey, crumbly and dusty, not black and rich and sticky. It's good to know my garden has hope! I was planning on inter-planting bushbeans this year, but beans are really hard to grow for me. I couldn't get even 10% to germinate either of the past two years. I will keep at it!

Tracydr · April 23, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by LindyAdele

Oh! Thanks for responding. I think I have been assuming my soil was bad because it never looks as great at stuff out of a bag. It's always grey, crumbly and dusty, not black and rich and sticky. It's good to know my garden has hope! I was planning on inter-planting bushbeans this year, but beans are really hard to grow for me. I couldn't get even 10% to germinate either of the past two years. I will keep at it!

Favas or fenugreek may be good for your area for a cool season legume. Or, there's always clovers.
The favas are nice because you can eat the leaves and the beans. Yummy leaves!

Worth1 · April 13, 2015

I wouldn't tell you to get a real test.

I do this stuff all of the time at my house and my plants are thriving.
One thing I dont do that you have been doing is carpet bomb your garden with everything that is supposed to make it grow.

There are a few things I would do to help your garden and some people will disagree with me but I dont care.
1, I would lower the PH to around 6.
2, I would add peat moss or some other organic material to the soil.
The peat will lower the PH to some extent.
Do a an other PH test idf you can with even a cheap meter to souble check the results you got from the rapid test.
If you take some of your soil put it in a jar and add vinegar and it foams your ph is above 7.
If you use baking powder or soda mixed wit water in another sample and it foams your ph is acidic.
Remember most garden vegetable like an acidic soil lower than 7 but higher than 5.
& is the very limit of what they like.

3 I would add some Nitrogen to the garden, you have a short growing season and dont have time to wait for the nitrogen to break down so the plants can take it.
4 forget the beans find some other crop that will grow better in your area.
Maybe peas would do better.
One thing you have to remember.
The nitrogen is locked up in nodules in the roots it wont do you any good this year until they die and decompose.
Plus that nitrogen is used for the legume to produce its own crop not yours.
Yes there will be some left over but not as much.
It has always been a misconception that legumes are pumping nitrogen out into the soil as they grow feeding other crops.
It sounds like you have a great garden going.
Now is the time to carefully fine tune it to get the very best results.

Worth

KarenO · April 13, 2015

Hi LindyAdele,

Do you use an inoculant when planting beans? also, you can pre-soak overnight and plant them into nice warm soil.
It is a bit of a myth imo that beans fix nitrogen in the soil. They fix nitrogen in nodules in their roots whch the plant then mainly uses up in it's life cycle. Pulling up the plants removes even what is left in the root nodules. Planting legumes cover crops like clover and tilling them in before they set seed leaves the roots and nodules in the soil and that adds nitrogen to the soil itself along with organic matter but cover crops are not really possible in areas with a single growing season, with real winters, where nothing is growing.
Plant beans if you like beans but they are not the nitrogen adding miracle of popular garden mythology. Legumes fix nitrogen in their roots, not in the soil and the plants use it up for their growth. Remove the plant and any nitrogen fixed by bacteria on roots goes with it.
Agree with Worth, a fast source of nitrogen is easiest. Commercial or organic fertilizer. Blood meal works well if you want organic.
KarenO
And now I wait for the fallout

LindyAdele · April 13, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarenO

Hi LindyAdele,

Do you use an inoculant when planting beans? also, you can pre-soak overnight and plant them into nice warm soil.
It is a bit of a myth imo that beans fix nitrogen in the soil. They fix nitrogen in nodules in their roots whch the plant then mainly uses up in it's life cycle. Pulling up the plants removes even what is left in the root nodules. Planting legumes cover crops like clover and tilling them in before they set seed leaves the roots and nodules in the soil and that adds nitrogen to the soil itself along with organic matter but cover crops are not really possible in areas with a single growing season, with real winters, where nothing is growing.
Plant beans if you like beans but they are not the nitrogen adding miracle of popular garden mythology. Legumes fix nitrogen in their roots, not in the soil and the plants use it up for their growth. Remove the plant and any nitrogen fixed by bacteria on roots goes with it.
Agree with Worth, a fast source of nitrogen is easiest. Commercial or organic fertilizer. Blood meal works well if you want organic.
KarenO
And now I wait for the fallout

Thanks Karen - I have been trying to grow beans and peas because I LIKE them. I used innoculent. I soaked the beans overnight and then tossed them in innoculent as per instructions. I took soil temperature and planted them exactly when they were at the right temp. I made sure they were not too wet, even covering the bed when we had several days of crazy rain. Still, very poor growth. From 4 square feet and two full packages of bean seed, I got almost enough green beans for one meal! They are one of my favourite veggies though, and I love canned dilly beans.

LindyAdele · April 13, 2015

Worth - thanks for the thoughts! Please forgive my newbie enthusiasm, it is what caused me to dump everything into my garden (including several boxes of tomato fertilizer I forgot to mention!) and all the crazy stuff that people put in planting holes... I want to do better this year, so I'm starting with a soil test!

So. I need to lower the PH and add some Nitrogen. How would YOU do this?

Worth1 · April 13, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by LindyAdele

Worth - thanks for the thoughts! Please forgive my newbie enthusiasm, it is what caused me to dump everything into my garden (including several boxes of tomato fertilizer I forgot to mention!) and all the crazy stuff that people put in planting holes... I want to do better this year, so I'm starting with a soil test!

So. I need to lower the PH and add some Nitrogen. How would YOU do this?

I was afraid you are going to ask.
Now I'm really going to get it.
I would use the fast acting sulfur like aluminum sulfate as it will work this year.
Be careful with it and dont over do it.
Nitrogen would be your choice.
Some of the products like organic Miloganite are okay I guess but I wont use anything the came from a city sewer which it does.
I have my limits.

By the way I dont believe in doctoring a planting hole but other people do.

Worth

LindyAdele · April 13, 2015

What would you say to Chicken Manure for this year? (It has a NPK of 4-1-1). I won't add bone meal, or a blanket of manure like I have in the past... just adding a little of my own home-made compost. But I am considering blood meal and aluminum sulfate.

Worth1 · April 13, 2015

Chicken stuff sounds real good to me.
What ever is available.

I just want to add something as question.
How is it I can open up a store bought bag of beans for cooking and plant them directly in the soil no soaking and water them every day or so?
And they come up about a week later?
You may be caring for the beans too much.

But I always remember where you guys live compared to me and take that into consideration.

Worth

LindyAdele · April 13, 2015

I have a tendency to obsess over everything...I thought beans were an easy crop, but they have been the most difficult yet! I will try again, and hope not to fuss so much...

Tracydr · April 13, 2015

I had a hard time with beans in AZ. First, I had pill bugs eating the seedlings. The pH was way too high at more than 8.5, they like slightly acidic soil. Then, I would plant too late and they would hit the summer extreme hit. Beans like it warm but not 115! I had much better luck with long beans,cowpeas and the ornamental hyacinth bean, all heat lovers.
You may try some favas and runner beans as they like weather more like english or snap peas. Also, sounds like you may be planting too close. Maybe try some pole beans,which are more productive in a smaller area. Trellises are easy to make and can be decorative.
For your soil, I'd use fish emulsion and just use it for when the leaves start to get pale or growth tapers down. Otherwise, some kelp will give growth factors and strengthen the plants. Worm compost,too.
The nitrogen test isn't that helpful with organics.

lrussillo · April 23, 2015

I suggest a soil test that will tell you more. Calcium level? Sulfur? Plants need both. Gypsum (calcium and sulfur) will lower your ph and help leach out some of the phosphorus.

A good source of information on overall soil amendment and soil testing is grow abundant gardens: https://growabundant.com/

Worth1 · April 23, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrussillo

I suggest a soil test that will tell you more. Calcium level? Sulfur? Plants need both. Gypsum (calcium and sulfur) will lower your ph and help leach out some of the phosphorus.

A good source of information on overall soil amendment and soil testing is grow abundant gardens: https://growabundant.com/

Well sort of.
Gypsum Decreases pH of Sodic Soils
Gypsum immediately decreases the pH of sodic soils or near sodic soils from values often over 9 but usually over 8 to values from 7.5 to 7.8. these values are in the range of acceptability for growth of most crop plants.
Gypsum Increases the pH of Acidic Soils
One mechanism in which gypsum can increase soil pH enough in some acid soils to sufficiently decrease the level of soluble aluminum to grow crops satisfactorily is replacement of hydroxyl ions from some clay lattices by sulfate ions.

Don't confuse Lime with Gypsum though.

Gypsum is more of a soil conditioner.

Worth

April 13, 2015	#2
Redbaron Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 4,488	I would suggest you need no inputs at all. You have been over doing it. There is plenty of nitrogen locked up in organic matter that will release during the growing season. Those tests only measure the water soluble fraction, not the total. To make sure you keep a steady supply all you really need is to companion plant with a legume...maybe try bush beans? __________________ Scott AKA The Redbaron "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison co-founder of permaculture Last edited by Redbaron; April 13, 2015 at 11:36 AM.

April 13, 2015	#11
Worth1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Den of Drunken Fools Posts: 38,539	Chicken stuff sounds real good to me. What ever is available. I just want to add something as question. How is it I can open up a store bought bag of beans for cooking and plant them directly in the soil no soaking and water them every day or so? And they come up about a week later? You may be caring for the beans too much. But I always remember where you guys live compared to me and take that into consideration. Worth Last edited by Worth1; April 13, 2015 at 03:13 PM.

April 13, 2015	#3
LindyAdele Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Ontario Canada Posts: 323	Oh! Thanks for responding. I think I have been assuming my soil was bad because it never looks as great at stuff out of a bag. It's always grey, crumbly and dusty, not black and rich and sticky. It's good to know my garden has hope! I was planning on inter-planting bushbeans this year, but beans are really hard to grow for me. I couldn't get even 10% to germinate either of the past two years. I will keep at it!

April 13, 2015	#5
Worth1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Den of Drunken Fools Posts: 38,539	I wouldn't tell you to get a real test. I do this stuff all of the time at my house and my plants are thriving. One thing I dont do that you have been doing is carpet bomb your garden with everything that is supposed to make it grow. There are a few things I would do to help your garden and some people will disagree with me but I dont care. 1, I would lower the PH to around 6. 2, I would add peat moss or some other organic material to the soil. The peat will lower the PH to some extent. Do a an other PH test idf you can with even a cheap meter to souble check the results you got from the rapid test. If you take some of your soil put it in a jar and add vinegar and it foams your ph is above 7. If you use baking powder or soda mixed wit water in another sample and it foams your ph is acidic. Remember most garden vegetable like an acidic soil lower than 7 but higher than 5. & is the very limit of what they like. 3 I would add some Nitrogen to the garden, you have a short growing season and dont have time to wait for the nitrogen to break down so the plants can take it. 4 forget the beans find some other crop that will grow better in your area. Maybe peas would do better. One thing you have to remember. The nitrogen is locked up in nodules in the roots it wont do you any good this year until they die and decompose. Plus that nitrogen is used for the legume to produce its own crop not yours. Yes there will be some left over but not as much. It has always been a misconception that legumes are pumping nitrogen out into the soil as they grow feeding other crops. It sounds like you have a great garden going. Now is the time to carefully fine tune it to get the very best results. Worth

April 13, 2015	#6
KarenO Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Vancouver Island Posts: 5,931	Hi LindyAdele, Do you use an inoculant when planting beans? also, you can pre-soak overnight and plant them into nice warm soil. It is a bit of a myth imo that beans fix nitrogen in the soil. They fix nitrogen in nodules in their roots whch the plant then mainly uses up in it's life cycle. Pulling up the plants removes even what is left in the root nodules. Planting legumes cover crops like clover and tilling them in before they set seed leaves the roots and nodules in the soil and that adds nitrogen to the soil itself along with organic matter but cover crops are not really possible in areas with a single growing season, with real winters, where nothing is growing. Plant beans if you like beans but they are not the nitrogen adding miracle of popular garden mythology. Legumes fix nitrogen in their roots, not in the soil and the plants use it up for their growth. Remove the plant and any nitrogen fixed by bacteria on roots goes with it. Agree with Worth, a fast source of nitrogen is easiest. Commercial or organic fertilizer. Blood meal works well if you want organic. KarenO And now I wait for the fallout

April 13, 2015	#13
Tracydr Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2011 Location: Laurinburg, North Carolina, zone 7 Posts: 3,207	I had a hard time with beans in AZ. First, I had pill bugs eating the seedlings. The pH was way too high at more than 8.5, they like slightly acidic soil. Then, I would plant too late and they would hit the summer extreme hit. Beans like it warm but not 115! I had much better luck with long beans,cowpeas and the ornamental hyacinth bean, all heat lovers. You may try some favas and runner beans as they like weather more like english or snap peas. Also, sounds like you may be planting too close. Maybe try some pole beans,which are more productive in a smaller area. Trellises are easy to make and can be decorative. For your soil, I'd use fish emulsion and just use it for when the leaves start to get pale or growth tapers down. Otherwise, some kelp will give growth factors and strengthen the plants. Worm compost,too. The nitrogen test isn't that helpful with organics.

April 23, 2015	#14
lrussillo Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: virginia Posts: 57	I suggest a soil test that will tell you more. Calcium level? Sulfur? Plants need both. Gypsum (calcium and sulfur) will lower your ph and help leach out some of the phosphorus. A good source of information on overall soil amendment and soil testing is grow abundant gardens: https://growabundant.com/