Another Actinovate question

Mark0820 · July 30, 2012

I ordered some Actinovate today to try as an experiment in my garden. My tomato and pepper plants were recently hit with bacterial spot (the tomato plants also had early blight prior to the bacterial spot outbreak).

I know Actinovate is most effective when used prior to the outbreak of disease. As I mentioned in the first paragraph, I am just going to experiment with it this year, and use it next year starting at the seedling stage. The tops of my tomato plants are still in pretty good shape, so I am hoping to control the bacterial spot so new plant growth will hopefully yield additional tomatoes.

Last Saturday, I sprayed my plants with a copper fungicide (which is recommended for bacterial spot). If there is any residue of the copper fungicide left on the plant, will this harm or kill the microbes when I spray with Actinovate?

RayR · July 31, 2012

In general copper products are antibacterial as well as anti fungal, how antibacterial it is depends on the amount of cupric ions that are released by the product. It also depends on the particular copper compound in the fungicide that you are applying. Not all bacteria are affected in the same way by the same copper compounds. Some will be killed off, some will have a inhibited populations and some may be resistant and largely unaffected.
I was reading at Natural Industries that Actinovate is compatible with low application rates of copper hydroxide fungicides, but not copper sulphate at all.
It's probably a good question for Natural Industries to see if they have tested the product you are using with Actinovate.

Mark0820 · July 31, 2012

I will check with Natural Industries and see what they say. I am using Soap-Shield from Gardens Alive. The active ingredient is copper octanoate (10%). Here is what the EPA says about this product:

http://www.epa.gov/opprd001/factsheets/copper.pdf

RayR · July 31, 2012

I know Soap-Shield well, I still have some of the shelf from when I used it a few years ago.
It adheres very well to the leaf surface and doesn't wash off in the rain, I'd be interested in knowing what the actual toxicity is to the beneficial bacteria in Actinovate also.

Mark0820 · July 31, 2012

Do you think I am better off just using the Soap-Shield? I am kind of curious to see what impact Actinovate might have given the situation I am in.

Mark0820 · July 31, 2012

I sent an e-mail to Boomer. In the meantime, it appears copper based products can be used with Actinovate (see the sixth question from the top in the FAQs). However, this didn't completely answer my question.

http://www.naturalindustries.com/ret...d=30&Itemid=42

Mark0820 · July 31, 2012

I received Boomer's reply and it is good news for me:

"1. Actinovate and Soap Shield are OK to mix together. It is only when using large amounts of industrial copper products will this hurt the Actinovate microbes.

2. There are never any toxicity issues regarding Actinovate."

Mark0820 · August 2, 2012

[QUOTE=RayR;295781]I know Soap-Shield well, I still have some of the shelf from when I used it a few years ago.
It adheres very well to the leaf surface and doesn't wash off in the rain,[QUOTE]

Since Soap-Shield adheres very well to the leaf surface, I'm hoping those same properties will help the microbes adhere to the leaf surface as well (when using a mixture of the two products).

Mark0820 · October 11, 2012

I have to say I am very impressed with Actinovate.

In addition to the tomato plants, my pepper plants were also hit with bacterial spot. At the time, the sweet pepper plants were about 3 - 3 1/2 feet tall (I was able to harvest all of the peppers). The sweet pepper plants had dropped almost all of their leaves. There were probably 12 - 15 leaves left on each plant. They were literally "stick" plants (or Charlie Brown Christmas trees). My hot pepper plants had a lot of disease on the leaves, but hadn't dropped as many leaves as the sweet pepper plants.

Within 3 days of spraying the sweet pepper plants (I sprayed all of the stems and branches), I noticed new leaves starting to grow on the plants. New leaves also started to grow on the hot pepper plants and the diseased leaves began to drop. Eventually (with weekly sprayings) all of the pepper plants made a complete recovery and set new fruit (which I was able to harvest). I could barely tell the plants had ever had any disease. The plants were finally killed with our first frost last night.

The majority of my tomato plants also recovered with the weekly Actinovate sprayings. The tomato plants didn't recover as nicely as the pepper plants. The tomato plants never completely rid themselves of the disease, but the new leaf growth was impressive and very dark green. It looked like I had applied a fertilizer, but I didn't. I was able to harvest tomatoes right up until last nights frost.

This is definitely the most impressive product I have ever used. Given the condition of my plants when I first started to spray with Actinovate, I never imagined I would see the results I achieved. The person who gardens next to me at the community garden couldn't believe the results either. They plan on using Actinovate next year too. I will be using it as well. Only next year, I will be using it as a "preventative" rather than waiting until the plants are covered with disease.

RayR · August 1, 2012

This is very interesting and I'm gaining a new appreciation for Streptomyces bacteria. I've found a few studies that show that some strains of Streptomyces have been found to be resistant to low levels of heavy metals, including Copper and actually produce enzymes that reduce copper ions to copper oxide, which is also an anti fungal compound and also deadly to some bacterial pathogens. I don't know where Streptomyces lydicus WYEC 108 fits in here, but what Boomer seems to be saying in that it is at least resistant to low levels of copper like in Soap Shield.
Copper Octanoate actually has very low levels of copper compared to other copper fungicides, but the combination of copper with a fatty acid is somehow able to deliver an equivalent effect on pathogens

Another reference to Actinovate and copper is on Natural Industries web site concerning Citrus Canker:

Three years of IFAS research has demonstrated that, against Citrus Canker, Actinovate AG in combination with low rates of copper outperforms high rates of copper alone .

.

Mark0820 · August 1, 2012

This is definitely good news for me given the situation I am in. I will be using a combination of Soap-Shield (probably at a lower rate than I applied last Saturday) and Actinovate.

I was also happy to see in the FAQs that higher doses of Actinovate can be used. I will probably be using a higher dose just because of my current situation.

We are also starting to see signs of powdery mildew in this area, so I can't wait to apply some Actinovate to my melon plants.

JamesL · August 1, 2012

Good information gents. Thanks for sharing.

greentiger87 · October 11, 2012

Was this a mixture of copper octanoate and Actinovate?

Mark0820 · October 12, 2012

The first two times I sprayed, I used a combination of Soap-Shield (copper fungicide) and Actinovate. I used the copper fungicide because that is a typical recommendation for bacterial spot. The Soap-Shield was some I had leftover from several years ago, so I ran out of it after the first two sprayings. After the first two times I sprayed, I just used Actinovate by itself.

I did do two soil drenches on the peppers as well as the sprayings. I didn't do any soil drenches on the tomatoes because we had some heavy rains when I first started to spray, and I didn't want the tomatoes that were on the plant to split from additional water.

greentiger87 · October 12, 2012

Interesting. I definitely didn't get the same results with Actinovate. It seems to work splendidly for soil borne diseases, but for foliar disease on tomatoes, it just delays it. It's not sufficient unless I alternate it with daconil/mancozeb to act as a protectant. It may just be different disease pressure down here.

I'm really interested in using copper octanoate with actinovate, probably alternating rather than mixed together. Maybe the combination kills existing spores and then recolonizes with S. lydicus before new ones can arrive.

Btw, on whatever version of bacterial spot I have on my peppers, Actinovate was entirely useless, and so was copper octanoate. Assuming the pathogen I have is a Xanthomonas species, the failure of Actinovate and copper compounds is corroborated by controlled trials. They devastated my sweet pepper crop.. I only got a handful of peppers from a variety that appeared to be somewhat resistant... but I didn't keep track of the names (major fail, I know).

One interesting possibility I've come across is using regular old Xanthan gum, which happens to made from the cell wall polysaccharides of Xanthomonas campestris, to "prime" pepper plants for resistance.

But I do hope Actinovate keeps working for you! Many people I trust to not be shills regard it as a miracle product.

July 30, 2012	#1
Mark0820 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Cincinnati Posts: 907	Another Actinovate question I ordered some Actinovate today to try as an experiment in my garden. My tomato and pepper plants were recently hit with bacterial spot (the tomato plants also had early blight prior to the bacterial spot outbreak). I know Actinovate is most effective when used prior to the outbreak of disease. As I mentioned in the first paragraph, I am just going to experiment with it this year, and use it next year starting at the seedling stage. The tops of my tomato plants are still in pretty good shape, so I am hoping to control the bacterial spot so new plant growth will hopefully yield additional tomatoes. Last Saturday, I sprayed my plants with a copper fungicide (which is recommended for bacterial spot). If there is any residue of the copper fungicide left on the plant, will this harm or kill the microbes when I spray with Actinovate?

July 31, 2012	#3
Mark0820 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Cincinnati Posts: 907	I will check with Natural Industries and see what they say. I am using Soap-Shield from Gardens Alive. The active ingredient is copper octanoate (10%). Here is what the EPA says about this product: http://www.epa.gov/opprd001/factsheets/copper.pdf Last edited by Mark0820; July 31, 2012 at 08:03 AM.

October 12, 2012	#15
greentiger87 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Houston, TX - 9a Posts: 211	Interesting. I definitely didn't get the same results with Actinovate. It seems to work splendidly for soil borne diseases, but for foliar disease on tomatoes, it just delays it. It's not sufficient unless I alternate it with daconil/mancozeb to act as a protectant. It may just be different disease pressure down here. I'm really interested in using copper octanoate with actinovate, probably alternating rather than mixed together. Maybe the combination kills existing spores and then recolonizes with S. lydicus before new ones can arrive. Btw, on whatever version of bacterial spot I have on my peppers, Actinovate was entirely useless, and so was copper octanoate. Assuming the pathogen I have is a Xanthomonas species, the failure of Actinovate and copper compounds is corroborated by controlled trials. They devastated my sweet pepper crop.. I only got a handful of peppers from a variety that appeared to be somewhat resistant... but I didn't keep track of the names (major fail, I know). One interesting possibility I've come across is using regular old Xanthan gum, which happens to made from the cell wall polysaccharides of Xanthomonas campestris, to "prime" pepper plants for resistance. But I do hope Actinovate keeps working for you! Many people I trust to not be shills regard it as a miracle product. Last edited by greentiger87; October 12, 2012 at 01:15 PM.

July 31, 2012	#2
RayR Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Cheektowaga, NY Posts: 2,466	In general copper products are antibacterial as well as anti fungal, how antibacterial it is depends on the amount of cupric ions that are released by the product. It also depends on the particular copper compound in the fungicide that you are applying. Not all bacteria are affected in the same way by the same copper compounds. Some will be killed off, some will have a inhibited populations and some may be resistant and largely unaffected. I was reading at Natural Industries that Actinovate is compatible with low application rates of copper hydroxide fungicides, but not copper sulphate at all. It's probably a good question for Natural Industries to see if they have tested the product you are using with Actinovate.

August 2, 2012	#8
Mark0820 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Cincinnati Posts: 907	[QUOTE=RayR;295781]I know Soap-Shield well, I still have some of the shelf from when I used it a few years ago. It adheres very well to the leaf surface and doesn't wash off in the rain,[QUOTE] Since Soap-Shield adheres very well to the leaf surface, I'm hoping those same properties will help the microbes adhere to the leaf surface as well (when using a mixture of the two products).

October 11, 2012	#9
Mark0820 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Cincinnati Posts: 907	I have to say I am very impressed with Actinovate. In addition to the tomato plants, my pepper plants were also hit with bacterial spot. At the time, the sweet pepper plants were about 3 - 3 1/2 feet tall (I was able to harvest all of the peppers). The sweet pepper plants had dropped almost all of their leaves. There were probably 12 - 15 leaves left on each plant. They were literally "stick" plants (or Charlie Brown Christmas trees). My hot pepper plants had a lot of disease on the leaves, but hadn't dropped as many leaves as the sweet pepper plants. Within 3 days of spraying the sweet pepper plants (I sprayed all of the stems and branches), I noticed new leaves starting to grow on the plants. New leaves also started to grow on the hot pepper plants and the diseased leaves began to drop. Eventually (with weekly sprayings) all of the pepper plants made a complete recovery and set new fruit (which I was able to harvest). I could barely tell the plants had ever had any disease. The plants were finally killed with our first frost last night. The majority of my tomato plants also recovered with the weekly Actinovate sprayings. The tomato plants didn't recover as nicely as the pepper plants. The tomato plants never completely rid themselves of the disease, but the new leaf growth was impressive and very dark green. It looked like I had applied a fertilizer, but I didn't. I was able to harvest tomatoes right up until last nights frost. This is definitely the most impressive product I have ever used. Given the condition of my plants when I first started to spray with Actinovate, I never imagined I would see the results I achieved. The person who gardens next to me at the community garden couldn't believe the results either. They plan on using Actinovate next year too. I will be using it as well. Only next year, I will be using it as a "preventative" rather than waiting until the plants are covered with disease.

August 1, 2012	#10
RayR Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Cheektowaga, NY Posts: 2,466	This is very interesting and I'm gaining a new appreciation for Streptomyces bacteria. I've found a few studies that show that some strains of Streptomyces have been found to be resistant to low levels of heavy metals, including Copper and actually produce enzymes that reduce copper ions to copper oxide, which is also an anti fungal compound and also deadly to some bacterial pathogens. I don't know where Streptomyces lydicus WYEC 108 fits in here, but what Boomer seems to be saying in that it is at least resistant to low levels of copper like in Soap Shield. Copper Octanoate actually has very low levels of copper compared to other copper fungicides, but the combination of copper with a fatty acid is somehow able to deliver an equivalent effect on pathogens Another reference to Actinovate and copper is on Natural Industries web site concerning Citrus Canker: Three years of IFAS research has demonstrated that, against Citrus Canker, Actinovate AG in combination with low rates of copper outperforms high rates of copper alone . .

August 1, 2012	#12
JamesL Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Long Island NY Posts: 1,992	Good information gents. Thanks for sharing.