Indian Stripe Heart? and its elusive heartiness

[JLJ_]

I've been working on this for a while, but saw that Carolyn did recently receive Indian Stripe Heart seeds from Marina, which she'll either be distributing or having grown out or both, so I thought I'd bump getting this posted higher in my priorities as it *might* be of some value to those growing and evaluating Indian Stripe Heart?

One note -- there was a group of three growing out Selbo's Ribbed Red, but there hasn't been such a group for Indian Stripe Heart?, it just happens that there have only been three of us growing it out with any level of sorta, kinda success. (Important because if you're growing ISH?, don't feel that you're not "in" -- three have been growing it that we know of, but descendants of bluelytes' original ISH have been distributed via several routes, so there may be others growing Indian Stripe Heart?, all of whom are invited, urged, begged to post in this thread -- or somewhere -- about what they've seen.)

Below is a summary of the ISH? story -- there has been lots more discussion of many aspects over the years.

Sorta urgent for those who haven't seen it: As of today, January 14, 2017, if you do a google search for "tomato Indian Stripe Heart" you should see on the left of the image bar that appears as part of the routine search a 2010 picture of the heart shaped Indian Stripe that began it all -- a "real" heart -- the genetics for which *might* be hiding within the Indian Stripe Heart?s we've been growing. If you hover your mouse over the picture it should identify as Indian Stripe Heart.

As with all google image search displays, many of the images are not images of the item being searched for -- google image search just shows pictures that are on pages where the search words appear -- often pictures unrelated to the search words.

And for those who don't like to read long posts, the main conclusion here is that the best way to identify Indian Stripe Heart? plants with the strongest heartish tendencies might be to look for those with all or mostly heart shaped baby fruit, bearing in mind that this tendency *might* not appear until after the first flush.

So . . . about Indian Stripe Heart?

=============

Once upon a time, the one here known as travis sent seeds from his Victory Seed Co. Indian Stripe seed supply to one known as bluelytes.

Tomatoville thread 34136 October 31, 2014 middle of post #14

In 2010, (not at Tomatoville), bluelytes posted a picture of a heart shaped tomato from those Indian Stripe seeds -- not a "blunt heart", a true heart shape, like Anna Maria's Heart. (see reference to google image above)

There was much interest in this heart shaped Indian Stripe tomato. Seeds were sent to several, there were germination problems, but in 2012 Carolyn was able to get some hearts from the seed Bluelytes had sent her, both from her seed producer and via Freda's efforts at her home, as mentioned in these 2013 posts:

http://www.tomatoville.com/showpost....09&postcount=4

http://www.tomatoville.com/showpost....6&postcount=28

Carolyn did offer Indian Stripe Heart in her seed offer January 2013. There were a lot of germination problems, and by the end of the season, only MarinaRussian and I appeared to have obtained mature fruits that had any heartish tendencies, Marina more positive about the results than I.

Marina had a nice pic of 2013 green ISH tomatoes showing some blunt-heart shapes,

http://www.tomatoville.com/showpost....&postcount=111

and a pic of mature ISH tomatoes from the same season, which she felt were all hearts, if very blunt hearts

http://www.tomatoville.com/showpost....5&postcount=23


I didn't have green fruit pics of mine, but did take a mature fruit pic (top pic below) comparing five fruit from the "Indian Stripe Heart" seed (right) to an Indian Stripe fruit (top left) and an Indian Stripe PL fruit (bottom left).

While there were some sorta kinda heartish tendencies in the mature fruit (the one at about four o'clock on the right, for example) it seems at least questionable to me to identify as hearts fruit that is not clearly different from regular Indian Stripe fruit or ISPL fruit grown the same year in the same general area of the garden. Perhaps we need some sort of clear definition of a heart?

In early 2014 I put up a post to see if anyone was growing Indian Stripe Heart plants that produced unambiguously heart shaped fruit. No one turned up, but Ginger2778 (Marsha) was interested in the fruit, so I sent her seed from bagged blossoms of both Indian Stripe Heart? and Indian Stripe PL. She grew a plant of each in a shared earthbox and collected seed from unbagged blossoms, which may be involved in another 'heartish' story here in Tomatoville -- but at least they were both Indian Stripe. Her first fruits from the ISH? plant that came from the seed I'd sent her did not appear to be heartish, but toward the end of her season I believe that she said the last eight or ten or twelve fruit were more markedly heart shaped.

This is a fruit pic she posted from her 2014-2015 (winter) season:

http://www.tomatoville.com/showpost....&postcount=103

About her 2015-2016 season, she posted that her fruit had been mostly heartish but that another who'd grown the seeds hadn't seen hearts.

http://www.tomatoville.com/showpost....1&postcount=61

She distributed seeds from her 2014-2015 fruit in various ways, and sent me a few in July of 2015, which I grew in the 2016 season, along with other seed from the 2013 ISH? fruit grown here -- that is, I grew children and grandchildren of my 2013 ISH? fruit, as well as original IS and ISPL for comparison.

I enclose first flowers in large tulle "bags" with multiple ties for security -- so I didn't really notice anything about the shapes of my first baby 2016 ISH? fruit, and as it grew, it appeared roundish through the bags. However, in the latter part of the season, when I was no longer bagging blossoms because I had bagged fruit on each plant, I realized that the ISH? plants were producing mostly heart shaped baby fruit. Not *all* heart shaped babies, but decidedly more than the occasional baby-heart seen on ISPL or, very rarely, on original Indian Stripe.

The second and third pic below show the same tomato threesome -- from one of the "grandchildren" of the 2013 fruit that resulted from Marsha's 2014-2015 end of season hearts. There are two weeks between the two photos, and it can be seen that, while still heartish, they are becoming more round as they mature.

The other pics are just misc samples of a few of the heartish young fruit on other plants -- there were many more.

I still think that Indian Stripe Heart? is a work in progress. If most or all fruits mature to a form indistinguishable from original IS or ISPL . . . I just don't think that they're still hearts. But it does seem clear that there's a heartish element present in the ISH? line that does not exist -- or does not exist to the same degree, in the other Indian Stripes.

It was established long ago that, usually, the way to improve tomatoes is to select the best plants, not the best fruit (desirable fruit being one, but only one, attribute of a good plant).

The possibly valuable information from all this may be that the best way to identify Indian Stripe heart plants with the strongest heartish tendencies might be to look for those with all or mostly heart shaped baby fruit, bearing in mind that this tendency *might* not appear until after the first flush.

I intend to pursue this and see what happens, but the season here is so short that it's hard to give plants time to show what they can do, so this may be of more use to those with longer seasons.

[Gardeneer]

I personally don't think that any of those ripe tomatoes in the plate is heart.
Lot of tomatoes have slightly pointy blossom end. JMO.

[carolyn137]

Pursue it as you will JLJ,we all agreed that it was Marina who got the best now stable heart version as I've posted to you now several times since I got back online yesterday, and yes, she just sent those seeds to me. so not sure why you are still saying that all of this has to be gone over and over and over again.

And yet you posted

(I still think that Indian Stripe Heart? is a work in progress. If most or all fruits mature to a form indistinguishable from original IS or ISPL . . . I just don't think that they're still hearts. But it does seem clear that there's a heartish element present in the ISH? line that does not exist -- or does not exist to the same degree, in the other Indian Stripes.)

QED

Carolyn, who has yet to decide if she is going to send a small sample of seeds to anyone,especially since reading the above.I'm sorry,but that's the way I feel right now.I think no matter what I do I think you and possibly Marsha will still deny Marina's IS Heart.I can't find her heart em so maybe she Pmed me,will check.

[Dutch]

Hi Carolyn,
Check out my post #13 in this thread, http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=43303, titled Biest.
I am already planning on growing out Marina's "Deep Space", and the "IS Heart" would be a great and welcomed addition!
Dutch

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Hi Carolyn,
Check out my post #13 in this thread, http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=43303, titled Biest.
I am already planning on growing out Marina's "Deep Space", and the "IS Heart" would be a great and welcomed addition!
Dutch

Dutch, yes,Marina sent lots of seeds, but I haven't yet counted them and don't know when I will since I'm still way behind on answering em's, answering questions here and at idig, setting up a couple of large trades for new varieties,contacting those in primarily Europe who seem to have new ones each year,,and on and on..Enough to offer in the seed offer?I don't know, but there have been a few times in the past when I was pretty sure I wouldn't have enough seeds,so starred thos and when they were gone,they were gone.

Probably best to do some seed production this summer, you've put your dibs in now,but let's discuss it at our group em with others,since there were varieties that I asked for two folks to do ,in different parts of the country, as backups in case one got plants wiped out by weather.

Carolyn

[Dutch]

Hi Carolyn,
Thanks for the update on your busy schedule and the info on your quest in finding new and interesting varieties of tomatoes.
I understand there are protocols that must be followed in the grow out groups and I seek no special consideration. I will happily grow that which is allotted to me.
Thanks again for your reply and all that you do.
Dutch

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Hi Carolyn,
Thanks for the update on your busy schedule and the info on your quest in finding new and interesting varieties of tomatoes.
I understand there are protocols that must be followed in the grow out groups and I seek no special consideration. I will happily grow that which is allotted to me.
Thanks again for your reply and all that you do.
Dutch

Dutch,you remember how it goes, someone creates the spreadsheet, I fill it in with what I have,and then each of you put an X in the column where your name is next to the varieties you want to work with.

Rarely do I assign varieties to certain folks, I do that with Bill Minkey who has no computer and doesn't want one,and also with Gerardo in terms of sending him some, primarily from Ilex in Spain, that others aren't doing, and noted that on the spread sheet as well.

We still have to discuss Colgar Papuo and what to do with your thousands of seeds,re two others.

Thanks for getting back to me,really.

Carolyn

[ginger2778]

I NEVER disputed thst Marina's was the best example of an IS HEART, indeed, I have never seen photos of it to even say that. Please leave me out of this.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by ginger2778

I NEVER disputed thst Marina's was the best example of an IS HEART, indeed, I have never seen photos of it to even say that. Please leave me out of this.

Marsha,it was JLJ who referred to you with this comment

(In early 2014 I put up a post to see if anyone was growing Indian Stripe Heart plants that produced unambiguously heart shaped fruit. No one turned up, but Ginger2778 (Marsha) was interested in the fruit, so I sent her seed from bagged blossoms of both Indian Stripe Heart? and Indian Stripe PL. She grew a plant of each in a shared earthbox and collected seed from unbagged blossoms, which may be involved in another 'heartish' story here in Tomatoville -- but at least they were both Indian Stripe. Her first fruits from the ISH? plant that came from the seed I'd sent her did not appear to be heartish, but toward the end of her season I believe that she said the last eight or ten or twelve fruit were more markedly heart shaped.)

Perhaps it might have been easier to PM JLJ about his reference to you than otherwise. At this point I'm not sure what I should say,sowillnotcomment.

And yes, as I recall,Marina did show a picture(s?) of what she got in the performance thread from my seed offer, but I doubt you were reading about my seed offer since you had your own seed offer to deal with,and now I've forgotten which year it was and no way do I have the time to go check..

Carolyn, noting that Gerardo had mentioned a General Lee I asked him which one since there were two with the same name, and asked if what he had was from M in FL,he said no,part of the link he gave was xxxxed out but I traced it back to e-bay,and I could see nothing since I'm not registered with e-bay,and then gave him this thread which described the two I know of,one via you and one via Will Weaver:

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=40381

I do try to give credit where credit is due, and no,I'm not referring to you since you try to do the same.

Carolyn

[JLJ_]

:::really having a hard time thinking of something tactful to say:::

I believe that Marsha was probably concerned about "I think you and possibly Marsha will still deny Marina's IS Heart" which is an odd thing to say, when we have both expressed admiration for her work.

For those interested, post #1 contains a link to a pic of Marsha's fruit (the only one I could find), a link to a pic of Marina's green fruit and of her mature fruit (the only ones she's posted) and pics of what the ISH? has done here, in 2013 so it could be compared to the above and in 2016, relative to some new observations which, as was stated, I thought might be useful to those evaluating ISH?

In a forum context, comparing pics, though imperfect, is the only way I know of to form any sort of data based opinions about the 'heartiness' of any variety.

Carolyn, I told you that I thought it was wonderful that you were able to get some of Marina's seed -- and I think it's a great idea for you to have it grown out by as many folks as you can -- ideally folks who also grow Indian Stripe and Indian Stripe PL -- and see what happens.

Surely this isn't any sort of competitive project, but is rather a number of people whose combined efforts will, hopefullly, result in a line of Indian Stripe Heart "children" of bluelytes' tomato that will be reliable hearts and won't disappoint those who grow them.

I'm sad that the purpose of this thread, to offer some observations that might be helpful to those working with ISH?, especially in areas where they have longer growing seasons, seems to have been short circuited.

For those who are interested, the two most interesting new observations, I thought, were that clear baby fruit seems to round substantially as it matures until the full size fruit often is more standard looking IS conformation, and that it *might* be useful to use clear-heartish baby fruit as an indicator of plants with heartish potential, as that may be more difficult to assess from just the adult fruit.

As I've said before, one of the best things about working with IS Heart? fruit is that even when it doesn't produce hearts, it still produces great tasting Indian Stripe fruit -- so no garden space or effort is wasted.

[carolyn137]

[QUOTE=JLJ_;611080]:::really having a hard time thinking of something tactful to say:::

I believe that Marsha was probably concerned about "I think you and possibly Marsha will still deny Marina's IS Heart" which is an odd thing to say, when we have both expressed admiration for her work.

&&&&&

Not odd at all since I was responding to what you said:

(I still think that Indian Stripe Heart? is a work in progress. If most or all fruits mature to a form indistinguishable from original IS or ISPL . . . I just don't think that they're still hearts. But it does seem clear that there's a heartish element present in the ISH? line that does not exist -- or does not exist to the same degree, in the other Indian Stripes.)

*****
And also knowing that both you and Marsha were still interested in pursuing it since you had sent seeds to Marsha as well.

$$$$$$$$$$$

For those interested, post #1 contains a link to a pic of Marsha's fruit (the only one I could find), a link to a pic of Marina's green fruit and of her mature fruit (the only ones she's posted) and pics of what the ISH? has done here, in 2013 so it could be compared to the above and in 2016, relative to some new observations which, as was stated, I thought might be useful to those evaluating ISH?

In a forum context, comparing pics, though imperfect, is the only way I know of to form any sort of data based opinions about the 'heartiness' of any variety.

Carolyn, I told you that I thought it was wonderful that you were able to get some of Marina's seed -- and I think it's a great idea for you to have it grown out by as many folks as you can -- ideally folks who also grow Indian Stripe and Indian Stripe PL -- and see what happens.

%%%%%%

I think in a post above I indicated my current game plan when I said I hadn't counted the seeds,etc.

@@@@@@@

Surely this isn't any sort of competitive project, but is rather a number of people whose combined efforts will, hopefullly, result in a line of Indian Stripe Heart "children" of bluelytes' tomato that will be reliable hearts and won't disappoint those who grow them.

******

blueltyes seeds never worked out,you posted that yourself as did I.

&&&&&&&&

I'm sad that the purpose of this thread, to offer some observations that might be helpful to those working with ISH?, especially in areas where they have longer growing seasons, seems to have been short circuited.

For those who are interested, the two most interesting new observations, I thought, were that clear baby fruit seems to round substantially as it matures until the full size fruit often is more standard looking IS conformation, and that it *might* be useful to use clear-heartish baby fruit as an indicator of plants with heartish potential, as that may be more difficult to assess from just the adult fruit.

As I've said before, one of the best things about working with IS Heart? fruit is that even when it doesn't produce hearts, it still produces great tasting Indian Stripe fruit -- so no garden space or effort is wasted.

Carolyn, and as for me and my tribe I haven't the faintest idea of what I might have Freda grow for me this summer,especially since Rob,who usually raises my seedlings has fallen off the edge of the earth and hasn't been heard from, but I know he's still alive, so I'm told.

[JLJ_]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

blueltyes seeds never worked out,you posted that yourself as did I.

Surely, it's the children of bluelytes' seeds that all of us who are working with seeds from your 2013 seed offer are working with.

One of the reasons that I think it's so wonderful that you got seeds from Marina is that it adds another bluelyte seed child to the IS Heart? gene pool.

I get the feeling that you believe Marina's seeds represent a "finished" Indian Stripe Heart. From what you said above, you hadn't had time to really look at post 1 -- both you and Marsha indicated not having seen the pics of Marina's fruit.

When you get a chance -- look at the shape of her mature fruit, Marsha's and my pics of mature fruit and also compare the young fruit Marina saw with the 2016 pics. From that data . . . not much difference -- heartiness in both lines, but some pretty round adult fruit -- lots of potential but not yet a producer of reliable mature adult heart shapes.

Perhaps when you have growouts done of her seed you'll find that it is a producer of all or nearly all mature heart shaped IS fruit -- which will be great, if it happens. But the "really blunt heart" concept can awfully easily blur into seeing hearts in fruit shapes that are normal for IS and ISPL, especially if IS and ISPL aren't right there for comparison.

What's always given me hope that true heart shape is in the genes of those seeds, in addition to bluelytes' original fruit pic, is that you saw hearts from your yard and said that your seed producer reported all hearts. Has to be there somewhere. (links to where you said that are in post 1, too)

But, even though you and your producer saw hearts, considering the problems with germination of the 2013 seed offer seeds resulting from that 2012 'hearty' production -- there has to be a complication somewhere. Perhaps there's a correlation in these tomatoes between production of good mature hearts and poor seed formation -- maybe something that could be selected against to get a bluelytes type "real heart" producing plant. No way to tell but to plant seeds, evaluate them objectively (not wishfully) and go from there. It would be easier if hearts weren't fashionable -- less inclination to see hearts where there's just . . . nice IS tomatoes.

But the clear heart shaped baby fruit is an observable factor that is not in IS (except rarely), so it might really be a help in locating the heartiest parent plants -- especially paired with observations of hearty baby hearts fattening into forms nearer standard IS as they mature.

Anyway it will be interesting to see what happens when you grow out the seed, and meantime, if you look at the pics-data we have, I think you'll see why I don't think we have evidence of a reliable IS Heart as yet.

[akgardengirl]

I had some "hearty" shapes on my one ISPL this past year.

[JLJ_]

Originally Posted by akgardengirl

I had some "hearty" shapes on my one ISPL this past year.

Whatever they are, they're certainly cute! I believe I saw those on another thread about an apparent unexpected cross -- do you know where your seed came from?

I do think it's important to take steps to try to keep varieties true (bearing in mind that no amount of care possible in "real world" gardens absolutely guarantees that) -- but sometimes the unexpected ones turn out to be among the nicest!

[akgardengirl]

Originally Posted by JLJ_

Whatever they are, they're certainly cute! I believe I saw those on another thread about an apparent unexpected cross -- do you know where your seed came from?

I do think it's important to take steps to try to keep varieties true (bearing in mind that no amount of care possible in "real world" gardens absolutely guarantees that) -- but sometimes the unexpected ones turn out to be among the nicest!

My baggie says Indian Stripe Potato Leaf 2013 C. Male. They came from a trade a few years back. Unfortunately, I don't remember the persons name but looks like they originally came from Carolyn's seed offer in 2012. I don't care what it is because it sure did well up here in both production and taste.
Sue