Hybrid is as Hybrid does

[doublehelix]

I grow several hybrids. Hybrids like Sungold, Better Boy, Big Beef, Mountain Magic and Jetstar and others all have things worth paying for. That is what keeps me coming back year after year to buy the seeds. A lot of thought and work goes into creating a hybrid worthy for the tomato market. The parents in a commercial hybrid cross will consistently produce the desired results. The seed is predictable and always what the customer expects to get. However, I would not give you a nickel for a bucketful of the saved seed from any of them.

As many of you know, when you try to re-grow hybrid seeds you mostly end up with something that is nothing like the parent and quite often is unfit for human consumption. I cannot imagine wanting to buy second or third generation seeds from one of these well-known hybrids.

So, why would anyone pay for someone’s second or third generation of seeds from a hybrid that was unproven? If leftover seeds from Sungold are junk, isn’t it likely that seed from some amateurs crossing project is going to be a wasted spot in your garden?

If you let a hybrid tomato self-pollinate, then every generation the number of mixed or non-pure (you could still call them hybrid) tomatoes will diminish by 50%. So if the first generation is 100% hybrid, the next generation, or F2 has 50% hybrids mixed in, the next generation will have 25% and the next 12.5% etc. These are not hybrids that are consistent and predictable. These are just random plants that will most likely be undesirable. F2 or even F5 seeds are still hybrid seeds. I am in a state of disbelief at the number of companies jumping into this game. There is even one company calling a tomato a “Blend”. That is how someone who has made a career bad mouthing hybrid seeds, sells hybrid seeds.

Even seeds that are six generations away from the initial cross will have about 30 seeds out of every 1000 that are still hybrid. So if they are selling 30 seeds in a pack and 250 people purchase a pack of seeds what we are going to see is about 230 tomatoes that do not match the description. These 230 tomato plants are more than likely just junk. What will happen to these 230 tomatoes? They will be declared “new” or “mutations”. They will be named, passed around, and they too will be unstable and produce even more false assumptions and renaming.

There is going to be a glut of crappy named varieties hit this hobby in the next five years like the world has never seen. Not only that, but there will be hundreds of growth habits, shapes, sizes, and colors of tomatoes all with the SAME name. Also, there will be hundreds of tomatoes that are nearly IDENTICAL that will have DIFFERENT names too. This can’t be good for this hobby. The world does not need 10,000 new mediocre tomatoes.

What is the motivation for doing this?

I find it hard to believe seed vendors are selling unstable hybrids, and billing them as open pollinated.

When the seeds from Tomatoville’s Dwarf project were stolen, there was an interesting quote.

Originally Posted by nctomatoman

What I see is a world where there is far too much apathy and personal laziness - people very happy to piggy back on or take other folks' hard work just to make a buck.

[carolyn137]

Well done Steve.

What also bothers me is that the most of the persons buying these unstable hybrids don't really know what you posted above, may just put out one plant and think they have what they should have, which in reality is wrong b'c a responsible hybridizer will put out maybe 20 or so plants in just one season for a particular cross, making selections, sometimes many selections, and treating each of those lines separately. And doing it all over again for each of those selections.

When he or she makes some final decisions as to which selections are close to what the hybridizer is looking for that looks good, or even what's not being looked for that looks good and tastes good, then they have to be grown out for the generations you noted above until stable.

Which is why in my list of experiemental ones in my current seed offer, now closed, I spoke to that issue directly, for the three that I listed.All are works in progress as I see it.

Carolyn

[antichevarieta]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Well done Steve.

What also bothers me is that the most of the persons buying these unstable hybrids don't really know what you posted above, may just put out one plant and think they have what they should have, which in reality is wrong b'c a responsible hybridizer will put out maybe 20 or so plants in just one season for a particular cross, making selections, sometimes many selections, and treating each of those lines separately. And doing it all over again for each of those selections.

When he or she makes some final decisions as to which selections are close to what the hybridizer is looking for that looks good, or even what's not being looked for that looks good and tastes good, then they have to be grown out for the generations you noted above until stable.

Which is why in my list of experiemental ones in my current seed offer, now closed, I spoke to that issue directly, for the three that I listed.All are works in progress as I see it.

Carolyn

does this mean that i should not save Gary'O Sena seeds?

[Boutique Tomatoes]

Well said. If they're going to sell unstable lines they should at least let people know what they are. I personally like the opportunity to get early access to some interesting lines, but I know what I am getting into with them.

Unfortunately without full disclosure, as you said a large number of gardeners may plant out one plant of a F3 or F4 line and all carry a different version forward if they are seed savers, resulting in mass confusion a few years from now.

[frogsleap farm]

I'm afraid this trend of marketing unfinished lines will undermine credibility of what I believe may become a robust and interesting collection of small seed companies focusing on the tomato home gardner niche. We can/should do as good a job on product/seed quality as the big boys.

[bower]

Originally Posted by frogsleap farm

I'm afraid this trend of marketing unfinished lines will undermine credibility of what I believe may become a robust and interesting collection of small seed companies focusing on the tomato home gardner niche. We can/should do as good a job on product/seed quality as the big boys.

Well, I can't pretend to have seen all the promotional material being discussed here, but I don't think there is really any risk of undermining the extraordinary products which are coming from serious breeders like yourself.

I had a look at this page, and it seems to me that the 'unfinished lines' are being marketed to a different market segment, not the gourmet market which you serious breeders are catering to. This seed seller is clearly targeting a 'sentimentality' niche market ("my own tomato"), as well as selling the experience of selection in a very scaled down way, to home gardeners who are not breeders but want a small taste of that experience. If the results are 'genetically unstable crap' as is anticipated, well that is the kind of taste of the experience that they'll get. I would expect that experience to foster a deeper awareness and appreciation for the work that goes into the awesome, stable lines that are being produced by professionals like yourselves, and ultimately benefit your business.

For the smaller percentage of customers that actually continue the growout to stabilize and name their own variety, yes, it may result in circulation of some mediocre named varieties that only a mother could love, but I doubt that many will end up on the market. If so, I wouldn't expect them to last long in the face of competition with really excellent varieties that have been produced and stabilized with due care.

Yes, we could end up with some very similar (or the same) varieties which have unique names. As long as the parentage is acknowledged, their sibling status will be obvious enough. From a genetic diversity perspective, that is really not a bad thing for the ol tomato genome. Subtle traits, such as tolerance of the different pest/disease profile or climate/soil conditions in specific locations, may end up represented in the 'sibling seed' bank as a result, which would be excluded when the same cross is fully stabilized for optimal performance in one breeder's location. So there is a possible up side to the development of this 'amateur breeder' market.

Sorry to play devil's advocate, but I'm not convinced that this is a bad thing (in itself) but, like most things, it can certainly be negative if there is misrepresentation involved.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by bower

Well, I can't pretend to have seen all the promotional material being discussed here, but I don't think there is really any risk of undermining the extraordinary products which are coming from serious breeders like yourself.

I had a look at this page, and it seems to me that the 'unfinished lines' are being marketed to a different market segment, not the gourmet market which you serious breeders are catering to. This seed seller is clearly targeting a 'sentimentality' niche market ("my own tomato"), as well as selling the experience of selection in a very scaled down way, to home gardeners who are not breeders but want a small taste of that experience. If the results are 'genetically unstable crap' as is anticipated, well that is the kind of taste of the experience that they'll get. I would expect that experience to foster a deeper awareness and appreciation for the work that goes into the awesome, stable lines that are being produced by professionals like yourselves, and ultimately benefit your business.

For the smaller percentage of customers that actually continue the growout to stabilize and name their own variety, yes, it may result in circulation of some mediocre named varieties that only a mother could love, but I doubt that many will end up on the market. If so, I wouldn't expect them to last long in the face of competition with really excellent varieties that have been produced and stabilized with due care.

Yes, we could end up with some very similar (or the same) varieties which have unique names. As long as the parentage is acknowledged, their sibling status will be obvious enough. From a genetic diversity perspective, that is really not a bad thing for the ol tomato genome. Subtle traits, such as tolerance of the different pest/disease profile or climate/soil conditions in specific locations, may end up represented in the 'sibling seed' bank as a result, which would be excluded when the same cross is fully stabilized for optimal performance in one breeder's location. So there is a possible up side to the development of this 'amateur breeder' market.

Sorry to play devil's advocate, but I'm not convinced that this is a bad thing (in itself) but, like most things, it can certainly be negative if there is misrepresentation involved.

Bower, you linked to Bill Jeffers crosses and I've know Bill for many many years. He's a talented not so amateur breeder and does it as a sideline and has an excellent full time job elsewhere.

Bill explains what do with his offerings, as in making selections, etc., as I recall, I didn't read the whole page b'c I've got to pack more tomato seeds and ge tthem out for my seed offer, and Bill also gives the full parentage so that if folks want to look those up and see what they are they can do so. Agreed that most probably won't have enough grasp of tomato genetics to predict what might ensue, but for those interested and have enough room to do the growouts, I think it's great.

I have three crosses in the Experimental Section of my seed offer and warn about having enough room to do growouts,etc. , but I know from past experiences that many do and some only put out one plant.

Bill was the one who did the NAR X Brandywine which ultimately becameDixiewine which I haven't grown yet but have the seeds and may do so this summer. Since I introduced NAR and at one time liked Brandywine I asked Bill for some F2 seeds and he sent them ASAP but I only did one growout and didn't pursue it since I was at my new place and didn't have the acreage that I used to have.

I admire what Bill has done, and what varieties he's working on now, and feel that he's being honest and straightout, no misrepresentation, with his offerings, as some aren't, as to parentage and unstable lines being offered.

Just my opinion having known Bill, for what, maybe 15 years at least.

Carolyn, who never has made a deliberate cross, but has dehybridized a few varieties to stability, and has had some amusing results appear, viz., three plants of Cherokee Green put out for seed stock and two had pure white lousy tasting fruits, and then the two somatic mutations that appeared,now those were fun.

[carolyn137]

Mark, I was typing my response while you were posting yours and I see we agree on who is "serious" and gives all the info for a cross as opposed to those who may not.

I can't really spaek to Tom's potato ones except I can note that for the new tomato ones when he first put up his tomato ones there was outrage on the part of many since he never said those tomato named ones were not stable. and the prices being asked were high as several noted.

But he then went back and did note that the new tomato ones were not stable, and he did answer questions here about what to expect and select for and what to discard.

Carolyn

[bower]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Bower, you linked to Bill Jeffers crosses and I've know Bill for many many years. He's a talented not so amateur breeder and does it as a sideline and has an excellent full time job elsewhere.

Bill explains what do with his offerings, as in making selections, etc., as I recall, I didn't read the whole page b'c I've got to pack more tomato seeds and ge tthem out for my seed offer, and Bill also gives the full parentage so that if folks want to look those up and see what they are they can do so. Agreed that most probably won't have enough grasp of tomato genetics to predict what might ensue, but for those interested and have enough room to do the growouts, I think it's great.

I have three crosses in the Experimental Section of my seed offer and warn about having enough room to do growouts,etc. , but I know from past experiences that many do and some only put out one plant.

Bill was the one who did the NAR X Brandywine which ultimately becameDixiewine which I haven't grown yet but have the seeds and may do so this summer. Since I introduced NAR and at one time liked Brandywine I asked Bill for some F2 seeds and he sent them ASAP but I only did one growout and didn't pursue it since I was at my new place and didn't have the acreage that I used to have.

I admire what Bill has done, and what varieties he's working on now, and feel that he's being honest and straightout, no misrepresentation, with his offerings, as some aren't, as to parentage and unstable lines being offered.

Just my opinion having known Bill, for what, maybe 15 years at least.

Carolyn, who never has made a deliberate cross, but has dehybridized a few varieties to stability, and has had some amusing results appear, viz., three plants of Cherokee Green put out for seed stock and two had pure white lousy tasting fruits, and then the two somatic mutations that appeared,now those were fun.

Yes, I had a look at the offerings on that page, and they look like good parentage to work with in a cross. I haven't had my experience of growout yet, the pleasure awaits me.

[Fusion_power]

I too am not convinced this is entirely bad. There are lots of folks who love to tinker with genetics. With that said, what I foresee is a huge number of mediocre "varieties" being dumped onto the market over the next 5 years. The result will be cream rising to the top but this will take a number of years to sort out.

On a different note, using dna testing to stabilize desirable traits is close to being available to the average grower. This would enable anyone to stabilize a variety in short order while retaining desirable traits. In other words, super tomatoes are more and more feasible.

DarJones

[SpookyShoe]

I see you grow tomatoes in central Arkansas. My in-laws live in El Dorado and it was there that I met a friend of my in-laws who was growing a tomato he called Indian Stripe. He had a fabulous garden and always saved his own seed. I sent some of the seed to Carolyn, and because of her, the this tomato is widespead now.

My father-in-law, who is 94, remembers the tomato Marglobe being grown in his parents' garden. He has also commented that the tomato Bradley was very popular in the area for family consumption and to sell at market.

Donna

[b54red]

Originally Posted by SpookyShoe

I see you grow tomatoes in central Arkansas. My in-laws live in El Dorado and it was there that I met a friend of my in-laws who was growing a tomato he called Indian Stripe. He had a fabulous garden and always saved his own seed. I sent some of the seed to Carolyn, and because of her, the this tomato is widespead now.

My father-in-law, who is 94, remembers the tomato Marglobe being grown in his parents' garden. He has also commented that the tomato Bradley was very popular in the area for family consumption and to sell at market.

Donna

Thank you for sending Indian Stripe to Carolyn and her for spreading it around. It is my must grow tomato every year and probably my most successful heirloom of the hundreds of varieties I have tried.

Bill

[Mischka]

Originally Posted by bower

Sorry to play devil's advocate, but I'm not convinced that this is a bad thing (in itself) but, like most things, it can certainly be negative if there is misrepresentation involved.

I don't think anyone here could find fault with a seed vendor selling seeds clearly described as an unstable hybrid. You know what you're purchasing upfront. If you grow something that looks and/or tastes terrible, you haven't wasted your money and, more importantly, your entire growing season. You wanted to spin the roulette wheel and experiment from the get-go, right?

No harm, no foul. Experiments can be fun. We all took chemistry class in high school.

What isn't fun is when someone else is "experimenting" with your money and your time, without your knowledge. Or worse, intentionally deceiving you into making a purchase, based on their false advertising and lies.

Case in point. Below are two screenshots. One is from a forum, announcing the discovery of the tomato variety "Jim Dandy". The other is from a website now selling the seeds for "Jim Dandy".

Notice the date in the forum post: April 5th 2012. Based solely on what's written in the post, an unknown tomato variety cross-pollinated with a known orange variety and the resulting F1 hybrid seedling showed up in 2011. Seeds were saved from the one plant of this hybrid and were grown out in 2012.

The seeds saved from 2012 would produce the next generation hybrid, F2. F2 is an unstable generation, with different genetic traits of the parents expressing themselves in an unpredictable fashion.

In simple terms. It would be very unreasonable to expect any conformity from one plant to the next and to harvest fruits that look or taste like those from the previous F1 plant. This is why most folks don't bother saving seeds from F1 hybrid varieties. (and why you don't look identical to your siblings )
Reading the seed ad in the second screenshot, you'll notice the date of the F1 plants' appearance has been pushed back two full years.

Why?

Because if the truth were widely known about the date of the F1 origin for "Jim Dandy", most of us here wouldn't waste our money buying unstable F2 seed. Even with pushing the date back two years, the math still doesn't add up.

The saddest part of this story is that some folks are still going to purchase these seeds and waste their entire growing season before they discover they've been duped into buying something entirely different than advertised. The innocuous-sounding "appears to be stable" statement doesn't exculpate this vendor, either.

This is not an isolated incident with Marianna's Heirloom Seeds this season. Many of their 2013 "heirloom" offerings are a hodge-podge of genetically unstable crap.

Caveat Emptor...

[bower]

Wow, Mischka, thank you for the clarification. I visited Mariseed for the first time after seeing your original post, and followed the link to Bill's Created Heirlooms page which seemed like the right place but I couldn't find anything wrong with it. It's no wonder I didn't see the offending tomatoes, as I now see "Jim Dandy" is hidden among the regular offerings.
It's even more confusing to see this done 'right' and 'wrong' on the same site.

My apologies to Bill Jeffers BTW if my original post sounded like a criticism of the quality of his work - I was only reasoning about the general case and did not mean any specific criticism by posting the link. I just couldn't find anything wrong with it, and judging from the other responses here, we agree on that.
The 'Jim Dandy' is something else altogether. You are right to post a warning for people who may be taken in.

[Mischka]

Here's a perfect example where a recent cross is being sold as a stable OP variety - and to make matters worse, one of the parents has mysteriously changed from Anna Russian to Prue. (!)

"throws hearts and pastes" Does this statement absolve the seller of selling something unstable to unsuspecting customers?

No. Absolutely not.

I know that I would not want to waste an entire tomato growing season, just to find out the hard way that I'm growing a bunch of genetically unstable garbage.