Why not grow hybrids instead of heirlooms?

gourmetgardener · February 17, 2015

I notice on these forums that there is a lot of talk about heirlooms. I have tried growing both, but I find that most heirlooms succumb to diseases readily, have poor fruit set, and poor keeping qualities.

I would like to know what keeps people interested in heirlooms.

KarenO · February 17, 2015

As a home gardener, it's all about flavour and variety for me. I don't have much disease in my area. I also like to save OP seed and collect many different varieties. "If you have Seen one red regular leaf hybrid beefsteak, you have seen em all"

All the recessive genes are what makes heirloom OP tomatoes more interesting to me.

KarenO

AlittleSalt · February 18, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarenO

As a home gardener, it's all about flavour and variety for me. I don't have much disease in my area. I also like to save OP seed and collect many different varieties. "If you have Seen one red regular leaf hybrid beefsteak, you have seen em all"

All the recessive genes are what makes heirloom OP tomatoes more interesting to me.

KarenO

Word-for-word, exactly...except I don't use a "u" in flavor

I'm growing both hybrids and heirlooms and plan on saving seeds from all of them. Taste is the most important part.

Fusion_power · February 17, 2015

Heirlooms have traits that are unavailable in hybrids. The most important is flavor. If you want a typical cardboard grocery store tomato, grow most any hybrid. If you want a juicy ripe delicious home grown tomato, grow heirlooms. There are exceptions. By and large, Big Beef and Ramapo are very good flavored hybrids. You are correct that there can be more problems with heirlooms, but I have plenty of heirloom varieties that outproduce all but a handful of hybrids.

Sun City Linda · February 17, 2015

Like others, I grow for my own use and taste is the most important factor. I don't have a lot of disease pressure where I live either. I do grow a few hybrids, like Sungold and Brandy Boy also.

Gardeneer · March 31, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun City Linda

Like others, I grow for my own use and taste is the most important factor. I don't have a lot of disease pressure where I live either. I do grow a few hybrids, like Sungold and Brandy Boy also.

Same here.

Nothing to add

Catherine+twin · April 1, 2015

(Just in case the original poster is still reading the thread but not commenting,) I sort of understand his point. Almost all of the big-name heirlooms seem to be hot-climate long-season monsters that just won't grow on my mountain side. My nights are too cool and my season too short to get them to ripeness. If that was all that was available to the non-hybrid market, I would be buying hybrids, too.

However, TV isn't just about heirlooms. The tomato snobs here

aren't just about heirlooms. They/we are all interested in open pollinated (OP) tomatoes so that we can save seeds this year and grow them again the next year. They/we are about breeding new backyard varieties (the whole Dwarf project) instead of making do with plants bred for the grocery and processing markets. However, those breeding projects are often carried out to the stable f6 or f7 generation so that when they are sold or traded to other growers they are those OP tomatoes that could become the heirlooms of the future. And the modern OPs often have the disease resistance that you see in the hybrids you like. In fact, there are even modern OPs made with crosses with old heirlooms that also include disease resistance.

My go-to tomatoes for the past 20 years are sure producers in my difficult climate, two with a Russian origin, one from Sweden, all originally commercial varieties. Because they are OP, I am able to save seed from one year to the next with very little genetic drift (although we now maintain two strains of Amber-Colored, one with plants that are about 18" tall, the other with plants about 24-30" tall). I also provide a few plants to neighbors and co-workers.

This year I am trying out some of the dwarf project varieties. I still have to choose for my short season, so my selection is limited, but I still have several. But, again, these aren't "heirlooms," they are new open pollinated creations.

Catherine

Fred Hempel · April 1, 2015

I think there are a few snobs here who are also interested in hybrids, and some with very discriminating taste who do not need to save their own seeds.

Hybrids can be grown again, as long as there is demand and seed for sale.

I like to save seed. I like OP varieties. I also like hybrids, and I would shudder to think that I had to choose one or the other.

I also wonder, sometimes, why people insist on spending endless hours (and if time = money, a considerable investment) trying to dehybridize something so they don't have to pay for hybrid seed that costs a few dollars.

Is it really so bad to love a hybrid?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catherine+twin

However, TV isn't just about heirlooms. The tomato snobs here

aren't just about heirlooms. They/we are all interested in open pollinated (OP) tomatoes so that we can save seeds this year and grow them again the next year. They/we are about breeding new backyard varieties (the whole Dwarf project) instead of making do with plants bred for the grocery and processing markets.
Catherine

bughunter99 · April 2, 2015

Diversity is critical to species success. Monoculture is one disease epidemic away from extinction.

I love exploring the different traits of different vegetables. Yellow carrots, purple potatoes, white cucumbers, blue tomatoes, brown peppers, purple broccoli, rare parsleys and celery...they all have the slightly different traits than the most common variety of their species. But different does NOT mean inferior. In many cases different is superior in all ways except for popular opinion or perhaps shelf life. I don't grow based on either of these things. Hybrids are fine for some but far too narrow of a niche for many of us.

FLRedHeart · February 17, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by gourmetgardener

I notice on these forums that there is a lot of talk about heirlooms. I have tried growing both, but I find that most heirlooms succumb to diseases readily, have poor fruit set, and poor keeping qualities.

I would like to know what keeps people interested in heirlooms.

Heirlooms aren't for everyone, but, where to start?

1) Open Pollinated varieties can be saved and grow true
2) No need to maintain parent lines and possibly lose the hybrid cultivar
3) Variety of shape, texture and flavor viewed as unavailable in hybrids
4) Nostalgia, the impression of preserving a piece of the past
5) Price premium when sold due to consumer perceptions of heirlooms
6) Personal satisfaction to successfully grow challenging tomatoes
7) Maximum yield not always important for the home gardener growing more tomatoes than they can eat

mouka_f_slouka · April 1, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by FLRedHeart

Heirlooms aren't for everyone, but, where to start?

1) Open Pollinated varieties can be saved and grow true
2) No need to maintain parent lines and possibly lose the hybrid cultivar
3) Variety of shape, texture and flavor viewed as unavailable in hybrids
4) Nostalgia, the impression of preserving a piece of the past
5) Price premium when sold due to consumer perceptions of heirlooms
6) Personal satisfaction to successfully grow challenging tomatoes
7) Maximum yield not always important for the home gardener growing more tomatoes than they can eat

Hi Red,

I would agree with all of your reasons except for selling my tomatoes. I love growing tomatoes for personal reasons and not financial ones. Having said that, I can understand when someone is into growing a lot more than they can consume and might be interested in making a buck or two.
I personally like heirloom tomatoes simply to be able to save the seeds for the varieties that fit my soil and my gardening style.
Believe it or not, I did collect some random seeds from a community garden in my town and their seedlings are growing like crazy. The heirloom seeds I purchased are struggling to stay alive and none of them is really thriving. I wonder why?
Do you have any idea as to why these nameless varieties are growing big and are thriving while the heirlooms I purchased are struggling to stay alive?

Redbaron · April 2, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by mouka_f_slouka

Believe it or not, I did collect some random seeds from a community garden in my town and their seedlings are growing like crazy. The heirloom seeds I purchased are struggling to stay alive and none of them is really thriving. I wonder why?
Do you have any idea as to why these nameless varieties are growing big and are thriving while the heirlooms I purchased are struggling to stay alive?

Locally adapted?

SharonRossy · February 17, 2015

I'm growing one or two hybrids, but last year I grew Brandy Boy and I didn't have great results. My heirloom tomatoes did much better and flavor is outstanding. Sun gold and sun sugar will always have a place in my garden.

luigiwu · February 17, 2015

The variety and flavor. Also it makes sense to me to grow things that normally would cost $$$ in the stores (and harder/impossible to find) versus typical hybrid tomatoes that are everywhere and cheap.

Dutch · February 17, 2015

Hybrids are made from OP's so why wouldn't you just grow the OP(heirlooms).
Dutch

February 17, 2015	#1
gourmetgardener Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Canada (Zone 6b) Posts: 119	Why not grow hybrids instead of heirlooms? I notice on these forums that there is a lot of talk about heirlooms. I have tried growing both, but I find that most heirlooms succumb to diseases readily, have poor fruit set, and poor keeping qualities. I would like to know what keeps people interested in heirlooms.

April 1, 2015	#7
Catherine+twin Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Northern New Mexico Posts: 34	(Just in case the original poster is still reading the thread but not commenting,) I sort of understand his point. Almost all of the big-name heirlooms seem to be hot-climate long-season monsters that just won't grow on my mountain side. My nights are too cool and my season too short to get them to ripeness. If that was all that was available to the non-hybrid market, I would be buying hybrids, too. However, TV isn't just about heirlooms. The tomato snobs here aren't just about heirlooms. They/we are all interested in open pollinated (OP) tomatoes so that we can save seeds this year and grow them again the next year. They/we are about breeding new backyard varieties (the whole Dwarf project) instead of making do with plants bred for the grocery and processing markets. However, those breeding projects are often carried out to the stable f6 or f7 generation so that when they are sold or traded to other growers they are those OP tomatoes that could become the heirlooms of the future. And the modern OPs often have the disease resistance that you see in the hybrids you like. In fact, there are even modern OPs made with crosses with old heirlooms that also include disease resistance. My go-to tomatoes for the past 20 years are sure producers in my difficult climate, two with a Russian origin, one from Sweden, all originally commercial varieties. Because they are OP, I am able to save seed from one year to the next with very little genetic drift (although we now maintain two strains of Amber-Colored, one with plants that are about 18" tall, the other with plants about 24-30" tall). I also provide a few plants to neighbors and co-workers. This year I am trying out some of the dwarf project varieties. I still have to choose for my short season, so my selection is limited, but I still have several. But, again, these aren't "heirlooms," they are new open pollinated creations. Catherine Last edited by Catherine+twin; April 1, 2015 at 11:03 AM. Reason: spelling!

February 17, 2015	#14
luigiwu Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: ny Posts: 1,219	The variety and flavor. Also it makes sense to me to grow things that normally would cost $$$ in the stores (and harder/impossible to find) versus typical hybrid tomatoes that are everywhere and cheap. __________________ Subirrigated Container gardening (RGGS) in NY, Zone 7!

February 17, 2015	#15
Dutch Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: S.E. Wisconsin Zone 5b Posts: 1,831	Hybrids are made from OP's so why wouldn't you just grow the OP(heirlooms). Dutch __________________ "Discretion is the better part of valor" Charles Churchill The intuitive mind is a gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. But we have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift. (paraphrased) Albert Einstein I come from a long line of sod busters, spanning back several centuries.

February 17, 2015	#2
KarenO Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Vancouver Island Posts: 5,931	As a home gardener, it's all about flavour and variety for me. I don't have much disease in my area. I also like to save OP seed and collect many different varieties. "If you have Seen one red regular leaf hybrid beefsteak, you have seen em all" All the recessive genes are what makes heirloom OP tomatoes more interesting to me. KarenO

February 17, 2015	#4
Fusion_power Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,250	Heirlooms have traits that are unavailable in hybrids. The most important is flavor. If you want a typical cardboard grocery store tomato, grow most any hybrid. If you want a juicy ripe delicious home grown tomato, grow heirlooms. There are exceptions. By and large, Big Beef and Ramapo are very good flavored hybrids. You are correct that there can be more problems with heirlooms, but I have plenty of heirloom varieties that outproduce all but a handful of hybrids.

February 17, 2015	#5
Sun City Linda Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: SoCal Inland Posts: 2,705	Like others, I grow for my own use and taste is the most important factor. I don't have a lot of disease pressure where I live either. I do grow a few hybrids, like Sungold and Brandy Boy also.

April 2, 2015	#9
bughunter99 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: zone 5 Posts: 821	Diversity is critical to species success. Monoculture is one disease epidemic away from extinction. I love exploring the different traits of different vegetables. Yellow carrots, purple potatoes, white cucumbers, blue tomatoes, brown peppers, purple broccoli, rare parsleys and celery...they all have the slightly different traits than the most common variety of their species. But different does NOT mean inferior. In many cases different is superior in all ways except for popular opinion or perhaps shelf life. I don't grow based on either of these things. Hybrids are fine for some but far too narrow of a niche for many of us.

February 17, 2015	#13
SharonRossy Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Montreal Posts: 1,140	I'm growing one or two hybrids, but last year I grew Brandy Boy and I didn't have great results. My heirloom tomatoes did much better and flavor is outstanding. Sun gold and sun sugar will always have a place in my garden.