Could This Be Sun Gold OP

ContainerTed · July 30, 2015

I've been growing out a volunteer that came up in my garden in 2010. It has always been a "so so" tasting cherry size that had the colors, but not that finishing sweetness we all love. This year, my volunteer seeds came up with a much larger fruit and I'm not sure why, but this time the taste is at least as good as the Sungold F1 grown from commercial seeds.

My main point here is that the taste is in this one. It has me both excited and hoping that the next growout will be just as good tasting. Also, it is larger than the original Sungold F1. Pictured below are the volunteer followed by two of the Sungold F1 fruits (including the largest one I could find of the Sungold F1). Then, there is the Volunteer with the largest Sungold F1 and a plastic ruler. The last picture is of a one gallon ice cream bucket with both in it.

People have been trying for years to create an OP version of Sungold F1. I've been chewing on this "situation" for a couple of weeks now. I want this to be the real deal, but I also want to proceed with caution (The proof is in the pudding).

I'd like to hear your thoughts, opinions, and suggestions.

Labradors2 · July 30, 2015

Well done Ted! I'm sure there will be no shortage of volunteers all clamouring to help you grow out Maiden's (Sun)Gold!

Linda

Fred Hempel · July 30, 2015

I would not send it out yet (note what happened when still-segregating lines were sent out by Carolyn -- as discussed in her post above).

Remember, the expectations will be very high for an OP Sungold, and while you may be able to re-capture the magic in a subset of the plants you grow in the next generation, the likelihood is that many other folks will be disappointed in the one plant they grow out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Labradors2

Well done Ted! I'm sure there will be no shortage of volunteers all clamouring to help you grow out Maiden's (Sun)Gold!

Linda

Cole_Robbie · July 30, 2015

Nice. I have a large orange cherry that came to me labelled "Ambrosia." But it does not have Sungold sweetness.

**carolyn137** · July 30, 2015

Ted, there are four different OP versions of Sungold F1 3 developed by Reinhard Kraft in Germany and I know he's still working with it b'c he asked if I could get some seeds of the F1 and send them to him b'c they are so expensive in Germany.

I thought Tania might have them all together but she doesn't, and I know I've listed them here at Tville many times, so first, Tania's link:

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Sungold_Select

from memory there's

Sungold 1
Sungold 11
Sungold Select
Big Sungold Select.

The last one was a catastrophe. It was sent to Manfred Hahm who sent it to Reinhard who sent seeds to Brad Gates and my self and many got all different colors from its ince Brad had offered it and I did too in a seed offer.

With volunteers from Sungold F1 most folks get red fruited plants and that b'c there are red genes in the DNA that determine the typical long truss trait of most cherry varieties.

Carolyn

gorbelly · September 17, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by carolyn137

from memory there's

Sungold 1
Sungold 11
Sungold Select
Big Sungold Select.

I grew Sungold Select II (Reinhard Kraft) this year with seeds from Baker Creek.

They weren't as good as the hybrid, though the flavor improved over the season. Thick skins (although, on the flip side of that, no cracking), not as sweet as the hybrid. Started off a bit bland but got fruitier and sweeter as the summer went on.

Out of 4 plants, 1 was off-type and produced orange-red fruit. This fruit was actually more interesting to me than the on-type ones. Thin skins but no cracking, very fruity aroma but more on the zippy/tangy end of the spectrum though not so far as to be sour. While the on-type plants are really petering out now, the off-type plant is still pumping out tons of cherries.

I won't grow these again and will grow the hybrid if I do grow sungold again. I still have many tomatoes to try and limited garden space, so I'm going to hold off on sungold for a while. But I might save seed from the red ones, too.

**carolyn137** · September 17, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by gorbelly

I grew Sungold Select II (Reinhard Kraft) this year with seeds from Baker Creek.

They weren't as good as the hybrid, though the flavor improved over the season. Thick skins (although, on the flip side of that, no cracking), not as sweet as the hybrid. Started off a bit bland but got fruitier and sweeter as the summer went on.

Out of 4 plants, 1 was off-type and produced orange-red fruit. This fruit was actually more interesting to me than the on-type ones. Thin skins but no cracking, very fruity aroma but more on the zippy/tangy end of the spectrum though not so far as to be sour. While the on-type plants are really petering out now, the off-type plant is still pumping out tons of cherries.

I won't grow these again and will grow the hybrid if I do grow sungold again. I still have many tomatoes to try and limited garden space, so I'm going to hold off on sungold for a while. But I might save seed from the red ones, too.

Seed production for it was done by one of their seed producers and it was found out ASAP that what they were selling was a mixup and not correct.

I thought they stopped listing . Are they still listing it or perhaps someone else did new seed production.

Carolyn, who answered her own question when she read that you bought the seeds this year. That's really bad, bad, since it was reported back to them about the problem. But then I've read a few reports of folks getting wrong seed from Baker Creek of late, and not just tomatoes.

gorbelly · September 17, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Seed production for it was done by one of their seed producers and it was found out ASAP that what they were selling was a mixup and not correct.

I thought they stopped listing . Are they still listing it or perhaps someone else did new seed production.

Carolyn, who answered her own question when she read that you bought the seeds this year. That's really bad, bad, since it was reported back to them about the problem. But then I've read a few reports of folks getting wrong seed from Baker Creek of late, and not just tomatoes.

The website does state that it's not completely stabilized, so they're still selling it but being honest about its instability. I was not surprised or disappointed by the off-type plant I got. And I actually liked it better than the on-type tomatoes, especially earlier in the season.

My only "disappointment" was that the sungolds I've had from hybrid plants taste much better. But I put it in quotes because the tomatoes I got later on in the season were still perfectly fine tasting and way better than anything I could buy in a supermarket.

pauldavid · July 31, 2015

Looks and sounds good Ted!

Fred Hempel · July 30, 2015

Container Ted,

It is not an OP, in the sense that it is not yet true-breeding. It is most likely an F2 that grew from a seed from last year's plants, or an F3 if it grew from an F2 you had growing last year.

What has happened is that you seem to have the genes for the flavor and color aligned in the way you want them. Hopefully the great flavor is not due to the stress of being a volunteer. Stress has a way of fooling us, because the neglected plant often produces the tastiest tomatoes.

Only time will tell if you can keep selecting for the flavor and color (and size) you want. The only way to maximize the likelihood of success is to grow out many plants as you can next year, from seeds saved from the plant you like. Most of them will likely be disappointing, but you may find some that are still top-notch.

Then you will have to select again for 3 or 4 more generations (maybe more) before you will know if you will be successful.

Unfortunately, there is no guarantee that you will be able to get to F7 with a stabilized OP that people like as well as Sungold F1. But there is definitely high reward associated with the high risk that you get to the end with the magical Sungold OP everyone wants.

Decided to put my post here, since all other responses are here, and not in the duplicate thread.

ContainerTed · July 30, 2015

Yes, Carolyn. I understand all of that. I've grown the original F1, the Sungold Select, and the Big Sungold select. None of those had the taste, and like you said, Big Sungold Select was a huge disaster.

I grew Sungold F1 from commercial seeds and it was just as advertised. Sweet, beautiful orange colors, and large plants that threw out truss after truss of fruit. Then, in the same place in my garden, in 2011, I got a volunteer that had fruit that looked right, but the taste wasn't there. It was very tart and not much to talk about. So, I have grown it every year since, including 2013 when the cattle destroyed most of my garden. Each year, I've saved seed from it even in the years when I didn't actually taste a bunch of them. They were always the right size and had the right colors when ripening. But the taste just didn't have the sweetness of the commercial plant.

Each year, I also grew Sungold F1 from commercial seed to compare with the volunteer. Each year, everything was the same except for the taste. This year the differences are dramatic. The color and the color progression is the same, but the size is larger and the taste is there. It's like a super-sized Sungold. I have Sungold F1 Hybrid which I'm using to compare. The taste is the same.

I put this post here to see if someone else has seen these larger fruits. I have no explanation for the larger size, but I can tell you that I have two plants and there is another at my brother's place. They were planted before any other indicators surfaced. Before either of us got the first fruit set. Right now, I am hopeful with a healthy dose of disbelief, and a drop or two of intense hope that this is gonna repeat.

You can see my dilemna. I've come here to see what our Tomatoville village can add.

So, has anyone else gotten these larger fruits? And, if so, how did they taste? Were the plants from commercial seed or ?????

joseph · July 30, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by ContainerTed

I put this post here to see if someone else has seen these larger fruits.

I'm growing plants that are descended from SunGold (about F3 or F4) that have much larger orange fruits than SunGold. And some with slightly smaller fruits... I'm not chasing anything in particular in them, other than I have tended to save seed from the larger-fruited plants. If any red-fruited plants showed up I wouldn't know about it, because I grow landrace style and don't generally keep those kinds of records.

ContainerTed · July 30, 2015

Thanks, Fred. This year the three plants are actually F5 and will produce F6 seed. I agree that I must repeat this year's results. I posted this to see if anyone else has had anything similar happen - especially larger fruit. This may go nowhere, but the importance of this impels me to ask these questions. If I have stumbled upon the "panacea", then I want to know that. If it is a fluke, then I want to be able to evaluate and state that as well.

Fred Hempel · July 30, 2015

Well, that was dumb of me. I missed the whole "volunteer in 2010" thing.

If 3 plants in F5 were all top notch, I think sending it to a few friends could be very useful. And they probably won't be disappointed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ContainerTed

Thanks, Fred. This year the three plants are actually F5 and will produce F6 seed. I agree that I must repeat this year's results. I posted this to see if anyone else has had anything similar happen - especially larger fruit. This may go nowhere, but the importance of this impels me to ask these questions. If I have stumbled upon the "panacea", then I want to know that. If it is a fluke, then I want to be able to evaluate and state that as well.

bower · July 30, 2015

This is very intriguing for a person with little experience in how complex genetics pan out through the generations.... I would have thought that F5's would be more similar to the F4 parent but I guess that's not the case.

That makes me wonder, at what generation should we expect to select for a stable size or taste profile? I know both are very complex traits with a lot of genes involved, so I guess radical departures from the previous generation are not that uncommon..

July 30, 2015	#5
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	Ted, there are four different OP versions of Sungold F1 3 developed by Reinhard Kraft in Germany and I know he's still working with it b'c he asked if I could get some seeds of the F1 and send them to him b'c they are so expensive in Germany. I thought Tania might have them all together but she doesn't, and I know I've listed them here at Tville many times, so first, Tania's link: http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Sungold_Select from memory there's Sungold 1 Sungold 11 Sungold Select Big Sungold Select. The last one was a catastrophe. It was sent to Manfred Hahm who sent it to Reinhard who sent seeds to Brad Gates and my self and many got all different colors from its ince Brad had offered it and I did too in a seed offer. With volunteers from Sungold F1 most folks get red fruited plants and that b'c there are red genes in the DNA that determine the typical long truss trait of most cherry varieties. Carolyn __________________ Carolyn

July 30, 2015	#11
ContainerTed Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: 6a - NE Tennessee Posts: 4,538	Yes, Carolyn. I understand all of that. I've grown the original F1, the Sungold Select, and the Big Sungold select. None of those had the taste, and like you said, Big Sungold Select was a huge disaster. I grew Sungold F1 from commercial seeds and it was just as advertised. Sweet, beautiful orange colors, and large plants that threw out truss after truss of fruit. Then, in the same place in my garden, in 2011, I got a volunteer that had fruit that looked right, but the taste wasn't there. It was very tart and not much to talk about. So, I have grown it every year since, including 2013 when the cattle destroyed most of my garden. Each year, I've saved seed from it even in the years when I didn't actually taste a bunch of them. They were always the right size and had the right colors when ripening. But the taste just didn't have the sweetness of the commercial plant. Each year, I also grew Sungold F1 from commercial seed to compare with the volunteer. Each year, everything was the same except for the taste. This year the differences are dramatic. The color and the color progression is the same, but the size is larger and the taste is there. It's like a super-sized Sungold. I have Sungold F1 Hybrid which I'm using to compare. The taste is the same. I put this post here to see if someone else has seen these larger fruits. I have no explanation for the larger size, but I can tell you that I have two plants and there is another at my brother's place. They were planted before any other indicators surfaced. Before either of us got the first fruit set. Right now, I am hopeful with a healthy dose of disbelief, and a drop or two of intense hope that this is gonna repeat. You can see my dilemna. I've come here to see what our Tomatoville village can add. So, has anyone else gotten these larger fruits? And, if so, how did they taste? Were the plants from commercial seed or ????? __________________ Ted ________________________ Owner & Sole Operator Of The Muddy Bucket Farm and Tomato Ranch

July 30, 2015	#13
ContainerTed Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: 6a - NE Tennessee Posts: 4,538	Thanks, Fred. This year the three plants are actually F5 and will produce F6 seed. I agree that I must repeat this year's results. I posted this to see if anyone else has had anything similar happen - especially larger fruit. This may go nowhere, but the importance of this impels me to ask these questions. If I have stumbled upon the "panacea", then I want to know that. If it is a fluke, then I want to be able to evaluate and state that as well. __________________ Ted ________________________ Owner & Sole Operator Of The Muddy Bucket Farm and Tomato Ranch

July 30, 2015	#2
Labradors2 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Ontario Posts: 3,895	Well done Ted! I'm sure there will be no shortage of volunteers all clamouring to help you grow out Maiden's (Sun)Gold! Linda

July 30, 2015	#4
Cole_Robbie Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Illinois, zone 6 Posts: 8,407	Nice. I have a large orange cherry that came to me labelled "Ambrosia." But it does not have Sungold sweetness.

July 31, 2015	#9
pauldavid Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: NE Louisiana, Zone 8A Posts: 1,179	Looks and sounds good Ted!

July 30, 2015	#10
Fred Hempel Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Sunol, CA Posts: 2,723	Container Ted, It is not an OP, in the sense that it is not yet true-breeding. It is most likely an F2 that grew from a seed from last year's plants, or an F3 if it grew from an F2 you had growing last year. What has happened is that you seem to have the genes for the flavor and color aligned in the way you want them. Hopefully the great flavor is not due to the stress of being a volunteer. Stress has a way of fooling us, because the neglected plant often produces the tastiest tomatoes. Only time will tell if you can keep selecting for the flavor and color (and size) you want. The only way to maximize the likelihood of success is to grow out many plants as you can next year, from seeds saved from the plant you like. Most of them will likely be disappointing, but you may find some that are still top-notch. Then you will have to select again for 3 or 4 more generations (maybe more) before you will know if you will be successful. Unfortunately, there is no guarantee that you will be able to get to F7 with a stabilized OP that people like as well as Sungold F1. But there is definitely high reward associated with the high risk that you get to the end with the magical Sungold OP everyone wants. Decided to put my post here, since all other responses are here, and not in the duplicate thread.

July 30, 2015	#15
bower Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Newfoundland, Canada Posts: 6,794	This is very intriguing for a person with little experience in how complex genetics pan out through the generations.... I would have thought that F5's would be more similar to the F4 parent but I guess that's not the case. That makes me wonder, at what generation should we expect to select for a stable size or taste profile? I know both are very complex traits with a lot of genes involved, so I guess radical departures from the previous generation are not that uncommon..