Member discussion regarding the methods, varieties and merits of growing tomatoes.
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June 10, 2015 | #1 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Nanaimo , BC
Posts: 961
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When is a potato leaf not a Potato leaf ..Bloody Butcher ?
Hi all,
I am wondering if any of you know the variations of the Tomato leaf better than I ? I can spot a normal classical potato leaf ....a mile away . (Matina , Galinas, Kimberly, Shelicauski . visitation valley, Stupice etc etc.) I can spot a Silvery fir type leaf I can spot "angora " I can spot Rugose (Classical ) and what is labeled "regular " leaf . However I think there are some variations that make things a bit confusing some times ??? Are there leaf categories that are actually between the rugose/potato/regular classifications ? I have a Bloody butcher that seems to start out quite serrated deep in the younger leaves then as they mature ...they look Potato ...... If I were to look at it quickly with out knowing it was bloody butcher ...I would say it was a regular leaf ..(or even part rugose ?) but as the plant is getting going it looks like to me not really potato like. So when is a Potato leaf not a Potato leaf ? .......designation is decided on mature leaves ? when immature leaves look regular ????
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June 10, 2015 | #2 | |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a
Posts: 21,169
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Quote:
When starting seeds I never made the call on a new variety until the seedling was at least 4-5 inches tall, since, as you mentioned, the earliest leaves can look RL and as the plant matures only then can you tell if it's PL or remains RL. Below is a FAQ from the original Garden Web, but since Houzz bought out GW not all pictures are shown but I think it gives a good idea of variations between PL and RL. http://faq.gardenweb.com/discussions...-tomato-leaves And yes, you'll see who participated in writing the above FAQ and you might recognize a user name or two. And this is the Google search from which the above link came from so you might want to read those links that also address the same question. https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...ato+leaf+types Carolyn
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Carolyn |
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June 10, 2015 | #3 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Nanaimo , BC
Posts: 961
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Quote:
the links went into various other information ... including variegated etc. (yes I grew that one too ...ha ha ha) . for me it was just helpful knowing somebody has made distinction between 5 types of PL. As there must be ones that are tricky to ID at the younger stages ....depending on the environmental conditions I am thinking they express recognizable PL shape much later sometimes ... If anybody can find that German site "taxonomy " of the 5 PL forms /shapes or similar info. paper or I would be interested to look at it .......... I was thinking my plants had somehow started to destabilize the variety or had inadvertently hybridized etc. I also noticed on a few sites varieties leaf types are listed as regular/rugose as different from rugose ? Rugose / potato regular /potato potato ......are they possibly trying to describe with the 3 main leaf shape terms (Potato/regular/ rugose) a world that has at least 5 PL leaf shape varieties ?
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So Many Tomatoes ...So Little Time ! |
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June 10, 2015 | #4 | |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a
Posts: 21,169
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Quote:
No, environmental conditions do not influence whether a variety starts out as RL with lower leaves and then the newer leaves are PL. It's all about genetics. Some PL varieties are PL from the time they germinate and the first set of TRUE leaves appears, while others do the conversion bit. Rugose varieties are RL, it's just that the leaf surface is pleated. Off hand I know of no rugose variety that is PL, there may be but I have never heard of one or grown one, In your last pararaph, no they are not trying to define 3 types of leaf shape and some of the word combos you typed don't exist. Finally, no one will find that German link about PL shapes. I got it initially from someone else maybe 25 years ago, and there are MANY links I once had that have disappeared. Whether it's b'c the site hosting a link dropped it, or deletion of the software maintaining it, there's no way to know. And as I said, I have had MANY links go dead, so not at all unusual. Hopefully I've amswered most of your questions, Carolyn
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Carolyn |
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June 10, 2015 | #5 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hampton, Virginia
Posts: 1,433
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It very good to see your reply's: Your Reply's warms everyone hearts. I sent your seeds I saved from your project to the Seed Saver Exchange. I feel like you and the Seed Saver Exchange has been my teachers over the Years. It was good to see them Advertise everywhere because they are our Parents. Well my Parents. If I would have when to visit the Seed Saver Exchange Farm years ago I would have realized and Identified the Native Americans wild tomatoes growing on my property "called an "Aunt Molly" with very unusual Leafs. Well I had a good time growing over 200 variety of Tomatoes trying to found the So called Wild Tomato, I just never thought it was a little tomatoes in side the small hush on that small bush. For 20 years I only had the description of a wild Native American Tomato still growing on my historical Property Farms. So I think many people should plan a trip to the Seed Saver Exchange Farms to see in person the different leafs growing of Tomatoes Varieties. Yes I have some that look like a Mitten Shape but a Potato Leaf. That's good information to explain about the Mitten Leaf Potato Leaf. What kind of Leaf description we will call the Aunt Molly"s Leaves or Leafs? Farmer Joyce Beggs
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May God Bless you and my Garden, Amen https://www.angelfieldfarms.com MrsJustice as Farmer Joyce Beggs |
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June 10, 2015 | #6 | |
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a
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Quote:
So I'm not sure why you sent saved seeds from ones you got from me in my seed offers directly to SSE. Aunt Molly is not a wild tomato. It's a ground cherry in the genus Physalis, the same genus as Chinese Lanterns and many others. And one cannot compare leaf forms from anything in the Physalis genus with a true tomato in the genus Solanum. https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...+ground+cherry There are several different ground cherries, and to be honest, I don't like the taste of them at all. But there are many many different true tomato varieties that are so called wild ones and lots are listed in the SSE yearbooks. Most of them from the US Gulf states and Mexico, as spread by Spanish missionaries. Also ones from the Galapgos Islands which makes sense since tomatoes originated in thehighlands of Chile and Peru and it's been thought that birds transferred seeds from South America to the Galapagos islands. I donot suggest a trip to Decorah, IA where SSE is to see different leaf shapes of tomatoes for several reasons. First, there's been an almost complete turnover in staff there and I am not at all impressed with the new staff as to their knowledge of tomato varieties. Last Fall I called and wanted all of my listings in the yearbook to be deleted, and they were, but all that man really wanted to ask is if I would donate my seed collection to SSE and I never got back to him and never would I do that anyway, I'm not the only one deleting listings, that I know. many of us long term SSE members do not like the direction that SSE is taking, and no, I'm not going to be specific here. If I haven't asnwered your questions please just post in this thread and tell me what I left out. Carolyn
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June 10, 2015 | #7 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Nanaimo , BC
Posts: 961
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bloody butcher Multi shaped ..
I don't know if it is just my source of Bloody butcher 's or
that I just never noticed the leaf variations in the plant ....cause I was all about the Tomato...... My Single Plants ( different locations) now have full green fruit (Larger than "saladette' I would say ...which makes me suspicious)....The growing end of the plant vines have serrated sharp leaf shapes ...one would most certainly be forgiven for saying "Regular " shape looking . One can see that as the leaves mature the serrations and divisions smooth out and fill in .....but not totally ........Some real old / big ones look smoother ....But most are not the classical potato leaf with smooth symmetrical outline..........( Big old ones are Wobbly outline Potato leaf ) What is crazy is one branch of the same plant does have from the beginning small leaves that are symmetrical smooth classic potato leaf shape . I really had to inspect closer to verify it all was the same plant and same main stem....all these leaf shapes are in fact on one plant . really I don't care if it is mutated or Chimera or whatever ..... all I care is if it does produce edible fruit early and abundantly . It just seems in this case to be a trickier leaf classification... One might not just say "Potato leaf " if looked at quickly in passing due to the variation of leaf shapes on one plant. My Matina /Galinas/Shelicauski/Mrs. Maxwell/Stupice/Kimberly/ Visitation Valley etc. and other PL's do not do that here.
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June 11, 2015 | #8 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hampton, Virginia
Posts: 1,433
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Quote:
The Contributions you and Gray have made along with many of you set me Aback with slow thoughts of Why!!! 19 years ago there was an 85 year old lady up the road from one of our historical farmland and she told me the descriptions of many food grow here. She stated that their was a wild tomato still grounding here. Many of the Contraband Slaves only kept a description of the foods taught to them:to keep Native Americans Secrets. Since We own the late House Built by a Hands of Contraband Slave It became my mission to learn more about them. My home was Constructed by the first James Kirkpatrick whom build houses as is trade during slavery. So he built this home with 4x4 as studs above building codes of today Codes. So, I know these people was very intelligent. They also traded their food to other counties after the Civil War using only their description of Native American Foods to help the secrets the Vegetable. So When I was communicating with you-all over the years, I only has those discretion of the Vegetables and Fruits. So when the Description was a wild tomato_ That meant it was a tomato supply of food that grew back each year. I was told that while visiting an Indian Reservations in Texas many years ago. Like you, I really don't like the Ground Cherry. But my husband do. It's too new to me. Maybe because I am still in shark that I walked around a important food source used my the Contraband Slavey. They are too small to pick and take to a farmer market. But they are sweet. With the full Identities of the Contraband Food History. I am working on collecting the Irish Food Vegetable and Fruit history. Because the Native Americans Helped them to survive here as well and shared the farming and food secrets with them and the Irish shared their seeds with the Native Americans as well. So fare many of the Irish Vegetables are Biennials: But I have have 6 growing so far. I donated the Money always and last year seeds in your Honor. I will stop if you want me too because it was not easy for you-all to understand me and help me learn Complicated research over a decade. It is Sad when the World Change
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May God Bless you and my Garden, Amen https://www.angelfieldfarms.com MrsJustice as Farmer Joyce Beggs Last edited by MrsJustice; June 11, 2015 at 09:05 AM. Reason: Dyslexia |
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June 11, 2015 | #9 |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a
Posts: 21,169
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I donated the Money always and last year seeds in your Honor. I will stop if you want me too because it was not easy for you-all to understand me and help me learn Complicated research over a decade.
%%%%% No, I don't mind if you do that but usually when someone donates money in honor of someone it's b'c they have passed on to the Gods and Godesses of tomatoes in that big sky above, and fact is that I'm very much alive at age 75. I've been reading a book called Freeing Charles and chose that one b'c Charles finally escaped from the south and made his way to Troy, NY, traveling on the underground railroad that so many did from the south. Troy is right near me and many of the places and roads mentioned I know very well/ And the subject of Contraband Slaves was brought up, but no detailed information about food crops they grew either in the south or in the north where Charles finally settled. The book that was the basis of the movie 12 Years a Slave was written by Solomon Northrup and he and his family lived very close to where I now live so from his book I also knew of the various towns and villages mentioned in the book that are still here today. Carolyn
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Carolyn |
June 16, 2015 | #10 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: NC - zone 8a - heat zone 7
Posts: 4,916
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i grew Bloody Butcher, Matina, and Stupice last year.
As far as I can remember they all had clearly PL. And my main reason for dropping them was just because of that , PL. PL , I have found out are more prone to grey mold in my location. But that is beyond the point. |
June 16, 2015 | #11 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Nanaimo , BC
Posts: 961
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Quote:
but geese this one the new growth sure is NOT . I Just Love my Matina it seems to be fairly disease resistant and blemish free fruit the Stupice and Kimberly are always the first PL for me . Botrytis blight, or gray mold, you have ?????? there are other Tomatoes that are less susceptible in your case ???? What variety works better for you for this factor ???
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June 19, 2015 | #12 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hampton, Virginia
Posts: 1,433
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I think the Bloody Butcher are the only deep red PL, I have ever grown.
Can someone list all the deep red Pl Heirloom only? Not the Drawfs
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May God Bless you and my Garden, Amen https://www.angelfieldfarms.com MrsJustice as Farmer Joyce Beggs |
June 19, 2015 | #13 | |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a
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Quote:
Size of fruits as well since, for instance, there are very few large beefsteak PL varieties and yes, more PL small reds , but not all that many that are HEIRLOOM ones. If someone wants to do that for you, that would be great, but without histories on some of them it wouldn't be easy and I know that right now I don't have the time to do it. Just curious, but why are you interested in PL RED HEIRLOOMS and ALL of them? Carolyn
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June 24, 2015 | #14 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hampton, Virginia
Posts: 1,433
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Quote:
For over 15 years I have been trying to find the PL Pink Tomato Plant Tomas Jefferson brought to Monticello, after marrying is wife "as his wife family was already growing the Red Brandywines Tomatoes on the property before his marriages. After ruling out the Pinkish-Red "Cindy West Virginia PL": . The Only Tomato to fit Tomas Jefferson description that he added from Italy is the Sudduth's Strain Brandywine Tomatoes with Pl. Farmer, Joyce Beggs
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May God Bless you and my Garden, Amen https://www.angelfieldfarms.com MrsJustice as Farmer Joyce Beggs Last edited by MrsJustice; June 24, 2015 at 11:54 AM. Reason: Dyslexia |
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June 24, 2015 | #15 | |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a
Posts: 21,169
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Quote:
First, Thomas Jefferson was born April 13th, 1743 and died July 4th, 1826. He marreid Martha Skelton, his 3rd cousin, in 1772, so she was already part of the larger family. The wife's family could not have been growing Red Brandywine b/c it wasn't even known until 1885 in Chester, CO, PA, and that I knew already. The first tomato variety known to be PL was grown by the Livingston Seed CO and just called Potato Leaf,now extinct, but on the cover of their 1900 catalog they pictured Magnus and there's some history there that might interest you, link from Tania's siteL http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Magnus When Jefferson went to France as Minister in 1785 he did bring back seeds from Spain and italy, none were pink and no PL varieties were even known back then, In several of the articles I read it said that many foks were confused by varieties grown at Monticello these days, thinking they were original ones that Jeffersons grew, but that's not true. SESE ( Southern Exposure Seed Exchange) in Virginia has had a seed rack in the visitor room at Monticello and folks buy those packs as well. I read a LOT more than I just posted and Jefferson is credited with bringing back from France the small varieties Yellow Pear and Red Pear, and it's long been known that they are pre-1800 varieties. There are a few other pre-1800 varieties known and still available now, but nothing pink and nothing PL. Above you posted the following: (For over 15 years I have been trying to find the PL Pink Tomato Plant Tomas Jefferson brought to Monticello, after marrying is wife "as his wife family was already growing the Red Brandywines Tomatoes on the property before his marriages.) First, he only married once and she died at an early age, Second No smooth tomato varietes that were pink,nor PL were known when Jefferson was alive. Third, Red Brandywine was not known until 1865 as I mentioned above. Andrew Smith wrote a wonderful book about the history of theTomato and his research showed that no smooth varieties were known until Paragon and Trophy were introduced in the 1860's and in my tomato book I noted that. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/025...SIN=0252070097 Both Craig L and I knew Andy but have lost touch several years ago. On one of my bookshelves are the two volume books that Jefferson wrote, called his Gardening Journals. I've read them both and the tomato varieties he grew were few since there simply were not that many pre-1800 varieties available. https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...ening+Journals Would you please share with me where you got the information that his wife martha brought to him a PL pink smooth tomato in 1772 when they married? I couldn't confirm that but hopefully you can help me find that. I hope the above helps, Carolyn,who did not address your question about ALL PL red varieties , as in heirloom varieties not ones that have been bred or are the result of accidental crosspollinations, but I can tell you that there are very very few.
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