Breeding for Pastes

Whwoz · July 6, 2014

Here in Oz we seem to have a very limited range of pastes in colours other than red. If one were to start a breeding program aimed at breeding coloured pastes what features would one be looking for when it comes to selecting parents? Any thoughts/comments welcome.

Woz

joseph · July 6, 2014

Blossom End Rot seems to afflict paste tomatoes at a high rate... If I were to attempt to breed a new paste tomato I would make sure that one of the parents was a variety that is known to rarely if ever get BER. If there are 5 or 10 or 30 genes that contribute to better resistance to BER then perhaps some of them would inadvertently get included into the new paste tomato. We might not know the names and modes of actions of all the contributing genes, but we can observe in general which plants are more resistant.

Cylindrical fruits tend to get BER more than round fruits, so I'd select towards a round paste tomato. Pointy tips on fruits tends towards BER so I'd select against that trait as well.

One time I grew a tomato that had air inside instead of gel. It was a very dry tomato. It seems like that would make a great paste tomato. A tomato doesn't have to look like the archetypical Roma in order to be a wonderful as a paste tomato.

I prefer paste tomatoes to be determinate. Because I use them primarily to make sauce I want the whole harvest ripen at the same time so I can do one big batch of sauce instead of lots of little ones.

I would select against catfacing because that makes peeling tomatoes problematic for those recipes that call for peeled tomatoes.

I prefer about 4 ounce fruits because they work better with my sauce making equipment than larger fruits.

travis · July 13, 2014

Joseph has pointed out some important ideas in his earlier post.

Since your intent is to produce large batches of tomato sauce, salsa, or paste, BER is a critical issue with regard to paste tomatoes, as is having a full load of fruit all at once. So, I would think you'd want highly productive, fully determinate plants with BER resistant fruit.

This summer, I grew out some F2 seeds from a large fruited, beefsteak hybrid type recently developed in Florida. The F1 plant was a compact indeterminate with a bountiful crop of large red tomatoes with an heirloom appearance and good flavor.

To my surprise, one of my plants is a completely determinate, short stake type with "tall round" red fruit with pointed blossom ends. The tomatoes are modest size, heavy walled fruit with little gel or seeds. Most surprisingly, the flavor is better than the F1 beefsteak fruit from which the seeds came.

The tomatoes on this plant are ripening all at the same time, and there has been absolutely no BER, weather check, radial or concentric cracks, zipper drag, catfacing, irregularities, or blemishes of any sort.

What is not surprising is that the breeder apparently used a tomato with the "n" (nipple) gene to accomplish a tight or pinpoint blossom scar, as many professional breeders do this with their large and jumbo fresh market hybrids.

So, point is, maybe you can explore the use of F2 seeds from modern hybrids to find new lines of "paste" tomatoes with determinate growth habit and BER resistance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by joseph

Blossom End Rot seems to afflict paste tomatoes at a high rate... If I were to attempt to breed a new paste tomato I would make sure that one of the parents was a variety that is known to rarely if ever get BER. If there are 5 or 10 or 30 genes that contribute to better resistance to BER then perhaps some of them would inadvertently get included into the new paste tomato. We might not know the names and modes of actions of all the contributing genes, but we can observe in general which plants are more resistant.

Cylindrical fruits tend to get BER more than round fruits, so I'd select towards a round paste tomato. Pointy tips on fruits tends towards BER so I'd select against that trait as well.

One time I grew a tomato that had air inside instead of gel. It was a very dry tomato. It seems like that would make a great paste tomato. A tomato doesn't have to look like the archetypical Roma in order to be a wonderful as a paste tomato.

I prefer paste tomatoes to be determinate. Because I use them primarily to make sauce I want the whole harvest ripen at the same time so I can do one big batch of sauce instead of lots of little ones.

I would select against catfacing because that makes peeling tomatoes problematic for those recipes that call for peeled tomatoes.

I prefer about 4 ounce fruits because they work better with my sauce making equipment than larger fruits.

Father'sDaughter · July 6, 2014

I never really considered anything other than a red paste because all I've ever encountered is red tomato sauce. However, I received seeds for Polish Pastel in Tormato's swap and it intrigued me enough to grow it this year.

I would go with anything in the large plum family -- Romeo, Santa Maria, Casino, Rinaldo are all ones I have either grown or am growing. Franchi Giant Pear and the like would also be possibilities. I look for meaty, dry and few seeds.

Fusion_power · July 6, 2014

First, define "paste" tomato. To me, it is a dense meaty tomato with low natural water content. This is what makes it easy to cook down into thick paste. I don't consider sauce tomatoes such as Opalka to be pastes, they contain too much water.

Red, Orange, Yellow, and Green pastes are available. There is a need to do some breeding work with them for disease tolerance and density.

If I were picking parents for a breeding program, I would consider Heidi and Costoluto Genovese as red parents. Jaune Flammee, Little Lucky, Black From Tula, and Green Giant for the other side of the cross.

One of the biggest areas to improve paste tomatoes would be to increase their sugar content. This would reduce the need to add sugar when processing. I can think of two lines that could do this, but neither is commonly available.

Worth1 · July 6, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

First, define "paste" tomato. To me, it is a dense meaty tomato with low natural water content. This is what makes it easy to cook down into thick paste. I don't consider sauce tomatoes such as Opalka to be pastes, they contain too much water.

Red, Orange, Yellow, and Green pastes are available. There is a need to do some breeding work with them for disease tolerance and density.

If I were picking parents for a breeding program, I would consider Heidi and Costoluto Genovese as red parents. Jaune Flammee, Little Lucky, Black From Tula, and Green Giant for the other side of the cross.

One of the biggest areas to improve paste tomatoes would be to increase their sugar content. This would reduce the need to add sugar when processing. I can think of two lines that could do this, but neither is commonly available.

Costoluto Genovese and Green Giant would be very interesting indeed.

Worth

Dutch · July 6, 2014

Darrel, I have a dozen 97L97 growing this year. They are a great tomato to use in making ketchup. Thanks! You sent me six seeds two years ago and will grow these every year. Thanks again.
Dutch

Dutch · July 6, 2014

I think Zolotoe Serdtse and 97L97 would be a interesting combination.
Dutch

heirloomtomaguy · July 6, 2014

I like Fred Hempel's blush , lucky tiger, pink tiger, green tiger, and maglia rosa. Im really liking the lucky tiger....super sweet and not your typical paste color.

swamper · July 9, 2014

There are some great tasting large indeterminate sauce tomatoes, mostly related to San Marzano. Many of these produce late. Find one that grows well in your area and cross it with other tomatoes with characteristic you desire like higher flavor, color, yield, and be prepared to grow a LOT of offspring through many generations, and to select the traits you like, and backcross and select again if needed. The varieties Fusion mentioned all have exceptional characteristics. Many of the best tasting sauce tomatoes have wispy foliage. You should think about your goals; Do you want fruit that tastes good fresh as well as cooked? Do you want a load of fruit all at once for processing? Do you can whole tomatoes, make sauce, paste, salsa?

Most of the determinate types I've grown lack superior flavor. Deeper color can mean more flavor emerges on cooking, but the "crimson gene" types didnt taste any better fresh i.m.o. Their advantage might be better color from fruits harvested at breaker stage.

The Hempel lines mentioned are truly masterpieces of tomato breeding, but I would not consider them sauce tomatoes.

KarenO · July 9, 2014

Agree with Swamper, those Tomatoes mentioned bred by Mr. Hempel are not pastes. I do think the main reason why most actual paste tomatoes are red is because that is what color sauce people want. I am sure you could breed a green paste or a yellow paste but folks won't like the color they cook down to be. True Pastes are dry with minimal gel or seeds and are for cooking/recipes only in my opinion, not for fresh eating.
Plums are not pastes, nor are hearts or elongated cherries or saladette style oval tomatoes. Now those are for fresh eating or also may be canned or used in recipes so they are more versatile than pastes in my opinion and come in many colors.
Karen

Worth1 · July 9, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarenO

Agree with Swamper, those Tomatoes mentioned bred by Mr. Hempel are not pastes. I do think the main reason why most actual paste tomatoes are red is because that is what color sauce people want. I am sure you could breed a green paste or a yellow paste but folks won't like the color they cook down to be. True Pastes are dry with minimal gel or seeds and are for cooking/recipes only in my opinion, not for fresh eating.
Plums are not pastes, nor are hearts or elongated cherries or saladette style oval tomatoes. Now those are for fresh eating or also may be canned or used in recipes so they are more versatile than pastes in my opinion and come in many colors.
Karen

They had some green ketchup a while back I dont see anymore.

A real flop, I didn't buy any.

Worth

swamper · July 9, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarenO

True Pastes are dry with minimal gel or seeds and are for cooking/recipes only in my opinion, not for fresh eating.
Plums are not pastes,
Karen

I'm not really clear on the difference between plum and paste. I always assumed that plum describes shape, and paste tomatoes are defined by their lower juice content.

I'm curious whether you consider San Marzano a plum or a paste? or both?

Is Costoluto Genovese a paste?

There may be some important nutritional considerations with yellow-orange tomatoes which are higher in beta carotene versus lycopene in the red. A good reason to blend colors as Fred suggested, especially favoring the yellow-orange fruits.

Fusion_power · July 9, 2014

Paste designates dense meaty with low water content.

Plum designates an elongated shape

Costoluto Genovese is a dense meaty tomato therefore is a paste type

97L97 as mentioned above is interesting as a paste tomato because of the 40X carotene. Flavor is seriously deficient IMO.

I have some seed from a Rio Grande bee made cross that would be interesting to pursue if someone wants to give it a try. It looks like a beefsteak red crossed to the elongated Rio Grande. Possible segregants could include a huge deep oval tomato.

Fred Hempel · July 9, 2014

I think orange and pink are viable paste tomato colors.

Once I gave a bunch of paste tomatoes to a chef, and included an orange tomato, even though I thought I might be wasting her time with the orange variety.

The orange turned out to be her favorite because 1) it produced a delightful specialty sauce (smaller cells and more delicate flavor), and 2) she found that adding it to a blended sauce (with red tomatoes) brightened the red sauce both color-wise and flavor-wise. She took the Rhone wine approach to blended tomato sauces...

July 6, 2014	#1
Whwoz Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Victoria, Australia Posts: 870	Breeding for Pastes Here in Oz we seem to have a very limited range of pastes in colours other than red. If one were to start a breeding program aimed at breeding coloured pastes what features would one be looking for when it comes to selecting parents? Any thoughts/comments welcome. Woz

July 6, 2014	#9
heirloomtomaguy Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2013 Location: glendora ca Posts: 2,560	I like Fred Hempel's blush , lucky tiger, pink tiger, green tiger, and maglia rosa. Im really liking the lucky tiger....super sweet and not your typical paste color. __________________ “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it."

July 6, 2014	#2
joseph Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2013 Location: Cache Valley, N/E of The Great Salt Lake Posts: 1,244	Blossom End Rot seems to afflict paste tomatoes at a high rate... If I were to attempt to breed a new paste tomato I would make sure that one of the parents was a variety that is known to rarely if ever get BER. If there are 5 or 10 or 30 genes that contribute to better resistance to BER then perhaps some of them would inadvertently get included into the new paste tomato. We might not know the names and modes of actions of all the contributing genes, but we can observe in general which plants are more resistant. Cylindrical fruits tend to get BER more than round fruits, so I'd select towards a round paste tomato. Pointy tips on fruits tends towards BER so I'd select against that trait as well. One time I grew a tomato that had air inside instead of gel. It was a very dry tomato. It seems like that would make a great paste tomato. A tomato doesn't have to look like the archetypical Roma in order to be a wonderful as a paste tomato. I prefer paste tomatoes to be determinate. Because I use them primarily to make sauce I want the whole harvest ripen at the same time so I can do one big batch of sauce instead of lots of little ones. I would select against catfacing because that makes peeling tomatoes problematic for those recipes that call for peeled tomatoes. I prefer about 4 ounce fruits because they work better with my sauce making equipment than larger fruits.

July 6, 2014	#4
Father'sDaughter Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: MA/NH Border Posts: 4,919	I never really considered anything other than a red paste because all I've ever encountered is red tomato sauce. However, I received seeds for Polish Pastel in Tormato's swap and it intrigued me enough to grow it this year. I would go with anything in the large plum family -- Romeo, Santa Maria, Casino, Rinaldo are all ones I have either grown or am growing. Franchi Giant Pear and the like would also be possibilities. I look for meaty, dry and few seeds.

July 6, 2014	#5
Fusion_power Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,250	First, define "paste" tomato. To me, it is a dense meaty tomato with low natural water content. This is what makes it easy to cook down into thick paste. I don't consider sauce tomatoes such as Opalka to be pastes, they contain too much water. Red, Orange, Yellow, and Green pastes are available. There is a need to do some breeding work with them for disease tolerance and density. If I were picking parents for a breeding program, I would consider Heidi and Costoluto Genovese as red parents. Jaune Flammee, Little Lucky, Black From Tula, and Green Giant for the other side of the cross. One of the biggest areas to improve paste tomatoes would be to increase their sugar content. This would reduce the need to add sugar when processing. I can think of two lines that could do this, but neither is commonly available.

July 6, 2014	#7
Dutch Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: S.E. Wisconsin Zone 5b Posts: 1,831	Darrel, I have a dozen 97L97 growing this year. They are a great tomato to use in making ketchup. Thanks! You sent me six seeds two years ago and will grow these every year. Thanks again. Dutch

July 9, 2014	#10
swamper Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2009 Location: CT Posts: 219	There are some great tasting large indeterminate sauce tomatoes, mostly related to San Marzano. Many of these produce late. Find one that grows well in your area and cross it with other tomatoes with characteristic you desire like higher flavor, color, yield, and be prepared to grow a LOT of offspring through many generations, and to select the traits you like, and backcross and select again if needed. The varieties Fusion mentioned all have exceptional characteristics. Many of the best tasting sauce tomatoes have wispy foliage. You should think about your goals; Do you want fruit that tastes good fresh as well as cooked? Do you want a load of fruit all at once for processing? Do you can whole tomatoes, make sauce, paste, salsa? Most of the determinate types I've grown lack superior flavor. Deeper color can mean more flavor emerges on cooking, but the "crimson gene" types didnt taste any better fresh i.m.o. Their advantage might be better color from fruits harvested at breaker stage. The Hempel lines mentioned are truly masterpieces of tomato breeding, but I would not consider them sauce tomatoes.

July 9, 2014	#11
KarenO Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Vancouver Island Posts: 5,931	Agree with Swamper, those Tomatoes mentioned bred by Mr. Hempel are not pastes. I do think the main reason why most actual paste tomatoes are red is because that is what color sauce people want. I am sure you could breed a green paste or a yellow paste but folks won't like the color they cook down to be. True Pastes are dry with minimal gel or seeds and are for cooking/recipes only in my opinion, not for fresh eating. Plums are not pastes, nor are hearts or elongated cherries or saladette style oval tomatoes. Now those are for fresh eating or also may be canned or used in recipes so they are more versatile than pastes in my opinion and come in many colors. Karen

July 9, 2014	#15
Fred Hempel Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Sunol, CA Posts: 2,723	I think orange and pink are viable paste tomato colors. Once I gave a bunch of paste tomatoes to a chef, and included an orange tomato, even though I thought I might be wasting her time with the orange variety. The orange turned out to be her favorite because 1) it produced a delightful specialty sauce (smaller cells and more delicate flavor), and 2) she found that adding it to a blended sauce (with red tomatoes) brightened the red sauce both color-wise and flavor-wise. She took the Rhone wine approach to blended tomato sauces...