Planning a large farm: How long to desucker each indeterminate tom?

[cdevidal]

I once tried to grow three toms as a child but knew nothing about the process. Recently I've decided I want to try again, because some day (after much practice and experimentation) I would like to turn this into a business.

For my estimation purposes, I would like to know approximately how long it takes to desucker an indeterminate plant that is 7 foot tall, if done weekly. Does it take 20 seconds? 30? One minute? I would like estimations so that I know how much labor may be needed for a large farm. I am thinking of doing many different heirloom varieties but I'm going to start next year in my yard with some classic Brandywine, and only organic.

I'm sure I'll find out for myself how long it takes next year when I start my experiments, but it'd be good to get an idea right now for my planning.

Anyone willing to get out in their garden with a stopwatch?

This is a great forum!

[carolyn137]

I'm just curious as to why you want to take the suckers off any tomato plant?

I never have and I know lots of other folks who never have and there are many threads here if you do a search that discuss the issue of to sucker or not.

The way I see it, suckers, aka lateral branches, form blossoms and fruit and don't "suck" energy from the plant as so many believe.

Removing the suckers may give larger fruits, but I often say if you want larger fruits grow a variety with larger fruits.

As to yield, it doesn't seem to matter if there are more slightly smaller fruits as compared to a lesser number of larger fruits when yield is considered.

One consideration is how you're going to grow your plants, that is, by sprawling, caging, trellising, or staking, etc/

[Wi-sunflower]

YUP, I totally agree. Why sucker ??

The laterals are green growth = more chlorophyl = more tomatoes.

If you have a lot of tomatoes, like I do, I don't have a chance to do anything other than weed the plants. They just sprawl all over the place. So those laterals make more cover for the fruit.

Caging or doing a "Florida weave" type of staking would be a more productive use of your time and energy.

[louise]

I never take the suckers off either!

[cdevidal]

I understand this is a controversial issue but from my understanding, fewer stems = more plants/acre if grown vertically. If anything, I could run an experiment for myself to see which gives me the yield and type of yield per plant that I'm after, whether desuckering or not. I'm open to anything at this point because I am NOT an expert.

Anyone who desuckers their plants know how long it takes per plant? 15 seconds? 30?

[cottonpicker]

I "partially " desucker tomatoes to keep the size manageable. I hate overgrown messes and see no real advantage to them. Same for sprawling method, plus losses from rot.

[Dukerdawg]

I personally would not bother, particularly with a huge number of plants.As someone else mentioned a Florida weave would be easier and you would end up getting more tomatoes which of course would be the whole point. Some people sucker for aesthetics or to grow extra-large contest tomatoes or just for fun (growing large toms). I don't know if you could put an average time on suckering. Depends on the setup, how much growth and how fast you work! With the weave method you could just walk down your row and tuck/weave/tuck etc. Faster and IMHO more beneficial. With that said, I am also no expert! But sometimes plain 'ole common sense trumps that anyway.

Duane

[grunt]

Here's an alternative to Florida weave that works for me:

Posts are 10-12' apart, lines are tied on with a single bow knot to allow removal to tuck in wayward suckers that you miss. You may have to add cross lines in the row if you start getting a good heavy fruit set, like this:



Once you get over about 100 plants, you simply do not have the time to tie up and sucker them. Using the "ladder and string" method above, I take care of up to 500 plants myself. I crowd my plants a bit more than most people. The plants in the first photo are about 14" apart, those in the second one are about 18".
The plants in both photos have had a light side pruning just to open them up a bit for air circulation.
Cheers
Dan

[newatthiskat]

Hey grunt! I was looking at your website and was wondering how you got so many plants in your area. Thanks for explaining how you did it. Definately going to try that in 2009.
Kat

[cdevidal]

This is very good information, all! God bless you.

I missed these responses before:
"One consideration is how you're going to grow your plants, that is, by sprawling, caging, trellising, or staking, etc"

I planned on Mittleider's two-row 4' wide grow-box recommendations: 9" apart, 40" inner row, 2-3' "human" outer row. (Seems crowded, doesn't it?). But he prefers T-frames with baling wire bottom-to-top. I believe Florida weave or grunt's modified Florida weave would be much simpler and deliver exactly the same effect. Grunt, you have a thing of beauty and simplicity!

Cottonpicker, how long to partially desucker your plants?

Maybe this will help people answer my question: How many plants do you have, and how long does it take you per day or week to desucker?

[Wi-sunflower]

From Grunts pics, it looks like he subscribes to my theory that bailing twine and duct tape can "fix" most anything.

I usually buy 1 or 2 packs of 2 rolls of the orange poly bailing twine / year. Stronger than the natural twine and doesn't rot. Lots cheaper than small rolls of "cord". Roughly $20 / pack for like 7,000 ft of twine ( per roll I think, but not sure right now).

I'm not even sure that you can get bailing "wire" here in the USA any more.

I'm somewhat aware of the Mitleider method and have several of his books. Good info, especially for beginners. Some of his methods would be particularly useful for extending the seasons for market growers.

Personally I don't like the really close growth of Mitleider or even what Grub is showing, for tomatoes anyway. With plants that close you are asking for disease problems as air can't get between and around the plants very well.

In my area we have at least 1 or more period every summer when it's wet for about a week. Rainy, foggy, humid, never dries up. That's about the time disease runs from 1 end of the field to the other, no matter how resistant the variety.

At least that's been my experiences.

[Wi-sunflower]

I suppose this thread is as good as any other to tell about how I plant my tomatoes. Sorry no pics.

I start my plants inside in the greenhouse a bit earlier than many in my area. I want nice large plants for selling at the market and for my own planting. When I was new at this, I was amaized at how fast a neighbor farmer got his field grown. He said he got the best 4" potted plants he could find. Then he planted them on a grid that fit his tractor rototiller for less hand labor. I've tried to do something like that since.

Depending on our weather at planting time, sometimes the plants are a lot taller (leggy) than I would like. Because of that I came up with a method that helps with both the length and pot size. No "transplanter" I know of can do a 4" pot.

We modified an old plow to make it just a "1 bottom" plow. We open up a deep furrow the length of the row. We hand set the plants to lay on the short side of the furrow. Not where the plow turned the soil. If the plants are leggy, we lay them down along the row so that most of the stem will be covered with soil and only the top couple of clusters of leaves will be showing.

After setting, another worker follows along with a "mattock" type hoe and with a couple of pulls, covers the root and stem. We've been able to plant about 1,000 - 1500 plants in about 3 hours with a crew of 3-5. That's from finding the plants in the greenhouse, pulling the pots, marking the rows and recording the variety locations, setting and covering.

Later with Hubby driving the tractor and me riding on the back of the water wagon, we get them watered in. I used to drag a hose along the rows and gravity feed water to each plant. Took way too long and was a killer labor wise. Now I ride behind the tank and Hubby straddles the row of plants. There is a 1.5 " valve with a short piece of layflat hose I hold, pinch, direct onto the plants. Going about as slow as the tractor can go, we get about 1/2 - 3/4 gal of water on or near each plant. Usually doing that once or twice is sufficient till there is a decent rain.

Usually the covering part of the opperation doesn't totally fill back in the furrow. I will come back with my little old Allis G cultivator tractor and move the soil back into the row. I can also use it for close cultivation and we have a 5 foot rototiller for the back of a tractor that gets between the rows til the growth is too wide.

My method is a bit wastefull spacewise if you are tight on land. But we have 100 acres and do about 25 - 40 acres of assorted vegies each year and usually have more land than we need for the vegies.

[grungy]

Where grunt lives it is dry climate, humidity rarely goes 50% all summer. If you have a moister climate spacing of your plants can be farther apart, and you can also do some pruning as you go to open the plants up farther. Hope this clears things up a bit.
Cheers,
Val / grungy (wife of grunt)

[Wi-sunflower]

Yup, makes more sense now. If there isn't the humidity/disease problem, you definately can plant closer together.

For my summers it's rare that the humidity is under 50%. And then we get those wet weeks that are even worse.

[cdevidal]

Jacksonville, FL is huuuuumid!! Guess I need to spend some time testing plant spacing. Wi-sunflower, thank you so very much for the description of your labor-limiting method. Sure would be nice to have 100 acres to have the kind of problem you have! :-) I may be good to get 2 acres, but that may be all I need.

How many toms and how many hands do you need for all them toms, on average? I know times like harvest would be more intense and require more hands, but I'm just thinking of average...