Phytosanitary certificates

Fritz77 · July 11, 2016

Hey Tomatovillians,

as I’m preparing next season’s growlist, I am wondering if I could have some problems by ordering seeds from the US or Canada. I did find some websites that ship to Europe but I also read the following on seedsavers.org:
“ Buyers will pay the actual costs of phytosanitary certificates, if required for delivery. The standard rate for an official phytosanitary certificate from the United States Department of Agriculture is $85.00 USD. Some shipments may require two certificates, if the shipment contains both seeds grown in the United States and seeds grown abroad. If this is the case, then the fees will be $170.00 USD.”
Now, considering that I have a small garden and that my nest order will likely be woth $ 20-25, I would like to avoid such a cost.
How do I know in advance if such certificates are required? Has anyone ever ordered or shipped seeds from/to Italy? Do you know if there are additional costs, besides the shipping ones described in each site, for a small international order (6-7 packs)?
Thank you

JLJ_ · July 11, 2016

Interesting that seedsavers.org is saying that.

You'll find many that say they buy/send seeds internationally and have no problems. HOWEVER, it is clear from many reports that the US Customs has been enforcing permit requirements. Below are two discussions on the issue. As I recall, the only mention of consequences to someone other than in the US was in brokenbar's thread, a mention of someone in Spain encountering enforcement action both from US and Spanish authorities when they sent seeds into the US.

brokenbar began the discussion reporting an experience of her son, here in Wyoming, who is not an importer of large quantities . . . or even a frequent seed trader . . . and though she refers to him as her kid, he's a grown man -- I believe he runs their family ranch.

How it would affect you, I don't know, but you should read the threads and decide.

In your situation, if I wanted to buy from a US source, I'd contact them, tell them I only wanted a small quantity of seed, and that I didn't want to pay permit charges so wanted to know ahead of time if that would apply to my order. If you email them, you should have an answer from them in writing that would deal with US requirements. They might tell you to check with someone in your own country about possible fees from your government, hopefully they could tell you who, or you could find out locally.

Here's the recent discussions -- as I said, mostly about the free permit Customs is requiring for bringing seeds into the US -- but with implications for people on the other end of such transactions. Wouldn't apply directly to your problem, but might give you some idea how enforcement practices on transit of small seed quantities have changed.

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=39541

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=40458

PS -- if it were me, in addition to getting written assurance from the seller that their order would not involve permit charges to you, I'd pay them in some way where I had to specifically approve the payment amount, not, for example, give them an open ended charge account number to which they could charge whatever they decided the charges were -- that can result in one person saying "oh, no, there would be no extra charges for a shipment like yours" and someone else turning in the absurdly large charge and saying "the person who told you that didn't know what they were talking about". If they'd told you in writing that you wouldn't owe a charge, then they applied one, you could probably get it refunded, but it might be a hassle you could do without.

And it might pay you to prowl around online and see if there's anything that would give you assurance that your country or EU wouldn't assess or collect any charge before delivering your order.

Also, as far as I've heard this new enforcement policy regarding small seed shipments is a US policy. Canadian government may be friendlier -- might not be an issue at all with Canadian sources selling to Italy -- there are quite a few Canadians here who might be able to address that.

bower · July 11, 2016

Hi Fritz77, Welcome to T'ville!

JLJ is right, the seller is probably the best person to ask directly. There may be different regulations for different countries - or differences in how a general EU policy is applied - and the seller who ships internationally would be most likely to have experience with all of that.

Then again, it is also worthwhile to ask more than one seller, because they may have a different take on it. I know in buying other materials from the US, I encountered suppliers who really imposed a lot of penalties on international orders. Some others were happy to do business and made it as easy as you please. It may be the same for seeds.

Hopefully we may hear from some of our other EU members about their experiences as well!

**carolyn137** · July 11, 2016

I wrote a very long response here yesterday late,but lost it since my DSL problems are not solved as Verizon thought they were. I've been kicked off 3X today already

I addressed the seedsaver policy in detail and why and wrote much much more.

Tech is supposed to be here tomorrow,and if the problem is fixed I'll try to come back and recreate what I wrote,which I think was important.

Carolyn

Fritz77 · July 12, 2016

Dear tomato friends,
thank you for your advices. While waiting for Carolyn’s full reply (and considering the problems you’ve had with your DSL, I really thank you in advance for you effort), I must say that the whole thing sounds complicated and in a way risky. I really don’t want to get in trouble with the American, Canadian or Italian customs and like I said, it wouldn’t be worth paying hundreds of dollars for phytosanitary certificates and/or custom duties for 6-7 packs of (precious) seeds.
Of course, as suggested by JLJ, I could try to write an e-mail to the seller in order to explain that I only want a small quantity of seeds and to get written assurance that I won’t be charged with permit costs, certificates expenses etc.. I’ll think about it and I will read carefully the above linked threads. While I do that, I hope Carolyn will have better news for me.
It sounds like I will have to stick with the two Italian websites I found and with their limited selection of heirloom tomatoes.

**carolyn137** · July 12, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fritz77

Dear tomato friends,
thank you for your advices. While waiting for Carolyn’s full reply (and considering the problems you’ve had with your DSL, I really thank you in advance for you effort), I must say that the whole thing sounds complicated and in a way risky. I really don’t want to get in trouble with the American, Canadian or Italian customs and like I said, it wouldn’t be worth paying hundreds of dollars for phytosanitary certificates and/or custom duties for 6-7 packs of (precious) seeds.
Of course, as suggested by JLJ, I could try to write an e-mail to the seller in order to explain that I only want a small quantity of seeds and to get written assurance that I won’t be charged with permit costs, certificates expenses etc.. I’ll think about it and I will read carefully the above linked threads. While I do that, I hope Carolyn will have better news for me.
It sounds like I will have to stick with the two Italian websites I found and with their limited selection of heirloom tomatoes.

Fritz,I do have much better news for you,but today is waiting for a visit from a Verizon tech since the problems with my DSL line have not held,so I'll do it when I can,hopefully so I don't lose it again.

I could do it in an e-mail I send to myself and then cut and paste,but I'm going to wait.

Carolyn

MissS · July 13, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Fritz,I do have much better news for you,but today is waiting for a visit from a Verizon tech since the problems with my DSL line have not held,so I'll do it when I can,hopefully so I don't lose it again.

I could do it in an e-mail I send to myself and then cut and paste,but I'm going to wait.

Carolyn

I am very interested in what you have to say........

henry · July 12, 2016

From a growers perspective phytosanitary certificates can be a lot of work we used to ship garlic bulbils world wide not any more, the cost of the certificate was $25.00 and the garlic had to be inspected in the field and at shipping time. The real problem we found was the communication between governments up to a year sometimes to get everything in order.

Father'sDaughter · July 12, 2016

A reputable seller who regularly ships overseas should be able to tell you if one will be needed for just a few packs of seeds.

Fritz77 · July 12, 2016

Don't worry Carolyn. Take Your time. This is about the next season so we do have a lot of time. Thank you!

remy · July 12, 2016

Fritz,
I mail seeds all over Europe and Asia in countries that allow it. Many do not require a phyto certificate. Some are very lax on seeds and some ban only certain types.
I stopped sending to Italy though because of disappearing orders. I had a few not make it and now I will only do it if someone asks and is will to take the risk.
Remy

**carolyn137** · July 14, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fritz77

Hey Tomatovillians,

as I’m preparing next season’s growlist, I am wondering if I could have some problems by ordering seeds from the US or Canada. I did find some websites that ship to Europe but I also read the following on seedsavers.org:
“ Buyers will pay the actual costs of phytosanitary certificates, if required for delivery. The standard rate for an official phytosanitary certificate from the United States Department of Agriculture is $85.00 USD. Some shipments may require two certificates, if the shipment contains both seeds grown in the United States and seeds grown abroad. If this is the case, then the fees will be $170.00 USD.”
Now, considering that I have a small garden and that my nest order will likely be woth $ 20-25, I would like to avoid such a cost.
How do I know in advance if such certificates are required? Has anyone ever ordered or shipped seeds from/to Italy? Do you know if there are additional costs, besides the shipping ones described in each site, for a small international order (6-7 packs)?
Thank you

Back to the original post.

It's one thing if an individual wants to import,or have sent seeds to the US,but quite another when it comes to an organization such as SSE which has thousands of members.There are listed members,who list in the Yearbook what they have and they can be US members or now increasingly members from other countries.

Both listed and unlisted members can pay the price to listed members. So it makes sense to me why SSE posts what they do since they are a very public well known organization.

This all started many years ago when customs wanted to prevent importation of what they called noxious weed seeds to the US and yes, seeds sent to the US were confiscated but not that many.And then it was pointed out that not all states agreed with what they deemed to be noxious weeds,the example of tumbleweed was given over and over as was Devil's Claw.

Although I am no longer an SSE listed member, my choice,I give my latest and best varieties that I've sourced from many countries to my now 7 seed producers for seed production,they eventually appear in seed offers here, and several of those seed producers are SSE listed members,so they do get listed, which is important since the owners of many seed companies get their starter seeds from those listings.I also send trial amts to the owners of seed companies whom I've known well for many years.

I've also written extensively here at Tville about my thoughts of folks considering joining SSE and there are several threads already here about that.

Large commercial seed breeding companies outside the US do have to have phytos and they can well afford to do so,since seeds have to be lab tested to be sure they are pathogen free, which is very expensive. The Netherlands has many breeders as do Japan and IsraeL and India.

The only two places that ban importation of seeds are The Netherlands,b'c of all the breeding companies there and Australia,b/c of the presence of the Potato Spindle Viroid which also infects tomatoes and now that pathogen has been found in the US.

Of course some US folks have found ways around the restrictions to Holland and Australia,that's well known.When Sahin Seeds in Holland was still owned by Kees Sahin I sent him about 300 varieties,all had a green customs label and on that label he told me to write,for experimental purposes. Kees had ordered a huge amount of seed from Linda at TGS,she sent it to him,and it was returned to her,Kees told her to send the seeds to me and I repacked and sent all of them to him.

I'm not alone in getting seeds sent to me from many places and sending seeds to many places,and for me those would be the following countries.

Denmark,Belgium,France,Spain,Germany,Greece,Italy, Slovenia,Romania,Czech Republic, Belarus, England, Israel and several more I can't remember right now.

No phytos,no custom labels, just US stamps used by me,Global Forevers.

As far as I know phytos are used almost exclusively to send live plant material by US folks from other places such as between the US and Canada.I used to buy lots of stuff from Richters in Canada,but what they did was to get stuff across the border to the US, and then you can order live stuff without a phyto.

I know I probably forgot something,so if you have any questions,please just ask.

Carolyn

MissS · July 14, 2016

Carolyn you have some mail.

**carolyn137** · July 15, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissS

Carolyn you have some mail.

I know, got a notice here at home but when I came back last night after the wicked storms I didn't go to my PM's but I will eventually.

Carolyn

Fritz77 · July 15, 2016

Carolyn,
you've been most kind. What you wrote actually makes sense to me and the whole matter is becoming clearer to me.
Thank you for taking your precious time to reply. Let me know if there's anything you would like to have from Italy and I'll try to get it for you.

July 11, 2016	#1
Fritz77 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2016 Location: Siena-Monteriggioni, Italy Posts: 213	Phytosanitary certificates Hey Tomatovillians, as I’m preparing next season’s growlist, I am wondering if I could have some problems by ordering seeds from the US or Canada. I did find some websites that ship to Europe but I also read the following on seedsavers.org: “ Buyers will pay the actual costs of phytosanitary certificates, if required for delivery. The standard rate for an official phytosanitary certificate from the United States Department of Agriculture is $85.00 USD. Some shipments may require two certificates, if the shipment contains both seeds grown in the United States and seeds grown abroad. If this is the case, then the fees will be $170.00 USD.” Now, considering that I have a small garden and that my nest order will likely be woth $ 20-25, I would like to avoid such a cost. How do I know in advance if such certificates are required? Has anyone ever ordered or shipped seeds from/to Italy? Do you know if there are additional costs, besides the shipping ones described in each site, for a small international order (6-7 packs)? Thank you

July 11, 2016	#2
JLJ_ Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Wyoming Posts: 759	Interesting that seedsavers.org is saying that. You'll find many that say they buy/send seeds internationally and have no problems. HOWEVER, it is clear from many reports that the US Customs has been enforcing permit requirements. Below are two discussions on the issue. As I recall, the only mention of consequences to someone other than in the US was in brokenbar's thread, a mention of someone in Spain encountering enforcement action both from US and Spanish authorities when they sent seeds into the US. brokenbar began the discussion reporting an experience of her son, here in Wyoming, who is not an importer of large quantities . . . or even a frequent seed trader . . . and though she refers to him as her kid, he's a grown man -- I believe he runs their family ranch. How it would affect you, I don't know, but you should read the threads and decide. In your situation, if I wanted to buy from a US source, I'd contact them, tell them I only wanted a small quantity of seed, and that I didn't want to pay permit charges so wanted to know ahead of time if that would apply to my order. If you email them, you should have an answer from them in writing that would deal with US requirements. They might tell you to check with someone in your own country about possible fees from your government, hopefully they could tell you who, or you could find out locally. Here's the recent discussions -- as I said, mostly about the free permit Customs is requiring for bringing seeds into the US -- but with implications for people on the other end of such transactions. Wouldn't apply directly to your problem, but might give you some idea how enforcement practices on transit of small seed quantities have changed. http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=39541 http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=40458 PS -- if it were me, in addition to getting written assurance from the seller that their order would not involve permit charges to you, I'd pay them in some way where I had to specifically approve the payment amount, not, for example, give them an open ended charge account number to which they could charge whatever they decided the charges were -- that can result in one person saying "oh, no, there would be no extra charges for a shipment like yours" and someone else turning in the absurdly large charge and saying "the person who told you that didn't know what they were talking about". If they'd told you in writing that you wouldn't owe a charge, then they applied one, you could probably get it refunded, but it might be a hassle you could do without. And it might pay you to prowl around online and see if there's anything that would give you assurance that your country or EU wouldn't assess or collect any charge before delivering your order. Also, as far as I've heard this new enforcement policy regarding small seed shipments is a US policy. Canadian government may be friendlier -- might not be an issue at all with Canadian sources selling to Italy -- there are quite a few Canadians here who might be able to address that. Last edited by JLJ_; July 11, 2016 at 01:35 PM.

July 11, 2016	#4
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	I wrote a very long response here yesterday late,but lost it since my DSL problems are not solved as Verizon thought they were. I've been kicked off 3X today already I addressed the seedsaver policy in detail and why and wrote much much more. Tech is supposed to be here tomorrow,and if the problem is fixed I'll try to come back and recreate what I wrote,which I think was important. Carolyn __________________ Carolyn

July 12, 2016	#8
henry Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Midway B.C. Canada Posts: 311	From a growers perspective phytosanitary certificates can be a lot of work we used to ship garlic bulbils world wide not any more, the cost of the certificate was $25.00 and the garlic had to be inspected in the field and at shipping time. The real problem we found was the communication between governments up to a year sometimes to get everything in order. __________________ Henry

July 12, 2016	#11
remy Buffalo-Niagara Tomato TasteFest™ Coordinator Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Z6 WNY Posts: 2,354	Fritz, I mail seeds all over Europe and Asia in countries that allow it. Many do not require a phyto certificate. Some are very lax on seeds and some ban only certain types. I stopped sending to Italy though because of disappearing orders. I had a few not make it and now I will only do it if someone asks and is will to take the risk. Remy __________________ "I wake to sleep and take my waking slow" -Theodore Roethke Yes, we have a great party for WNY/Ontario tomato growers every year on Grand Island! Owner of The Sample Seed Shop

July 11, 2016	#3
bower Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Newfoundland, Canada Posts: 6,794	Hi Fritz77, Welcome to T'ville! JLJ is right, the seller is probably the best person to ask directly. There may be different regulations for different countries - or differences in how a general EU policy is applied - and the seller who ships internationally would be most likely to have experience with all of that. Then again, it is also worthwhile to ask more than one seller, because they may have a different take on it. I know in buying other materials from the US, I encountered suppliers who really imposed a lot of penalties on international orders. Some others were happy to do business and made it as easy as you please. It may be the same for seeds. Hopefully we may hear from some of our other EU members about their experiences as well!

July 12, 2016	#9
Father'sDaughter Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: MA/NH Border Posts: 4,919	A reputable seller who regularly ships overseas should be able to tell you if one will be needed for just a few packs of seeds.

July 14, 2016	#13
MissS Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin Posts: 3,149	Carolyn you have some mail. __________________ ~ Patti ~

July 15, 2016	#15
Fritz77 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2016 Location: Siena-Monteriggioni, Italy Posts: 213	Carolyn, you've been most kind. What you wrote actually makes sense to me and the whole matter is becoming clearer to me. Thank you for taking your precious time to reply. Let me know if there's anything you would like to have from Italy and I'll try to get it for you.