The blue danger threatens the conformity of tomatoes) Summary Sin

[Ambiorix]

1) Summary
Since the arrival of the blue tomato, the pallet of the possible colors of tomatoes was enlarged. The craze caused by this new color urged me to ask me of numerous questions.
Do we really know the truth on the creation of the first blue tomato?
How and why this insipid tomato at first became very delicious when it was crossed with Heirloom varieties?
How and why some pollen of the flowers of this tomato can be transmitted in Heirloom varieties and introduce so the blue gene in these varieties?

I received seeds " OSU BLUE " in 2009 and I began to study it.
Two years later, I already had a tomato which had some taste and which since has already gone round the world.

There is now in 2015, a great deal of different varieties.
It is one of reasons why, there are so many instabilities in the new varieties of blue tomatoes and as there are so many not corresponding tomatoes in the same variety bearing the same name.
If two tomatoes of the same variety thus bearing the same name are not identical, it is necessary "to create" two different names.
It is simple if the breeder of tomatoes obtains these two varieties having the same name but he does not have to believe that he possesses the "real" variety: he has to confront his variety with all the varieties which other breeders possess.

A place, recognized by all is thus needed where each compares its variety with all the others and it is in this place that all the different names will be created.
It will also be necessary to define rules of conformity of the Heirloom tomatoes so that heirloom variety contains no blue gene.
Indeed, if we have in a space restricted for the heirloom tomatoes and the blue tomatoes, it is possible that blue genes enter in the heritage of heirloom tomatoes because of insect pollinators.
Thus, it is necessary to observe the plants of tomatoes which we raise to detect the presence of blue genes during all the growth of tomatoes.
The ultimate observation is the detection of the blue color on the skin of heirloom tomato.
It is especially necessary to learn to detect all these present visual markers at a moment of the growth of our plants of tomatoes.
I thus go you show examples which I discovered during my tests and during the tests which several of my testers discovered.
The title is a brief summary of what I have just written.
The blue is thus for the heirloom varieties and all the not blue modern varieties an enormous danger because the blue gene then is passed on in invasive way in the tomatoes which we want to keep healthy.
All this will be demonstrated in the report 2015 of the tests of Ambiorix.

To meditate: do not exchange and not give seeds of tomatoes which were not protected if they grew up with blue tomatoes in your environment.

[feldon30]

I fear for the future of this thread once the peanut gallery finds it.

[Salsacharley]

+1

Originally Posted by feldon30

I fear for the future of this thread once the peanut gallery finds it.

[saltmarsh]

Originally Posted by Ambiorix

1)The blue is thus for the heirloom varieties and all the not blue modern varieties an enormous danger because the blue gene then is passed on in invasive way in the tomatoes which we want to keep healthy.
All this will be demonstrated in the report 2015 of the tests of Ambiorix.

To meditate: do not exchange and not give seeds of tomatoes which were not protected if they grew up with blue tomatoes in your environment.

Whenever possible I try to follow Biodynamic Farming Principles, so as long as the Zenith and Horizon remain in place the Blue tomatoes really aren't an issue for me, but thanks for the heads-up. Claud

[Fusion_power]

The best I recall, you have 4 or 5 from me that were a result of some crosses Keith M. made. I got P20 in 2007 and grew a few plants ultimately selecting 1 of the 3 as the best and darkest. I picked those 3 plants from a tray of 48 or so seedlings based on the darkest bluest foliage and stems. Since then, I've seen about 100 "varieties" listed on various message boards and from businesses selling seed.

The best flavored I've had yet is a selection I grew for the 5 th time this year that makes golf ball size fruit with rich blue colors and has flavor nearly as good as Cherokee Purple.

[Ambiorix]

2)Story of My Pineapple blue "Ananas Bleues”

a)2009
I received 12 seeds baptized OSU blue (Oregon Student University).
This tomato was finalized by Jim Myers and his students in the United States.
Seeds were spread all around the world by some students.
The seeds that I had were not the best but tomatoes had the blue skin it is what mattered for me at this moment.
Indeed, many tries were realized by this professor and his students.
These tries were noted: P1, P2, P3 ... P16 … P20 … P30
It is P20 which contained most anthocyanins in the skin.
Many of hybrideurs renamed received this tomato.

Only 4 received successful seeds germinated.
I crashed 3 plants under the roof spread among the other varieties of all the colors and shape.
I collected 99 tomatoes numbered from OSU01 to OSU99...
I distributed seeds and tomatoes.
I kept the names of my testers for every tomato and I was able to follow the evolution of these tomatoes in time.
In 2009, the taste of these tomatoes was not tremendous but the blue color attracted the amateurs.
Some are not prevented from saying that it was bad and this reputation is still transmitted at the moment and applied tomato blue.
I had noted at that time the characteristics of every tomato: the weight, the shape, the colors and the number of rooms.
And I had noted that the taste evolved with the number of rooms.
For the greater part it was lower than 5 rooms thus 2, 3 or 4 rooms.

5: 10 rooms 159 g
50: 5 rooms 128 g
56: 5 rooms 40 g
76: 7 rooms 46 g
80: 2 rooms 19 g
It is necessary to ask itself questions at any time to try to understand.

Sept 25 OSU05.jpg

This is the photo of the OSU05.
It is flat while tomatoes having a few rooms are round.
It thus means that there was a fortuitous crossing: this tomato is the result of a contribution of pollen of another variety on the pistil of the flower of the plant.

b)2010

2010 is a crucial year because there were two extraordinary events:

1) I had given the tomato OSU45 to a colleague and her husband sowed and crashed all the seeds in his garden adjoining to a garden or red tomatoes of the shape of a hot pepper grew.

He obtained a red tomato of the shape of an olive and not blue.

A few years later, I obtained tomatoes of the shape of a hot pepper of red color with blue.

2) “La Bande à Basile” in Alsace looked for seeds of Lycopersicum capsiforme.
I had it of Luc Fichot's collection. I thus sent these seeds in 2010 which were then crashed next to a variety of tomato pineapple with regular leaves clear a plant resulting from OSU56.

c)2011

I sowed the received successful seeds that I believed to be children of "OSU56".

101LB because it was seeds of a tomato of the plant of OSU56 that had given the round tomatoes to the red and blue skin.

101LB gave me 11 tomatoes " pineapple blue " to the yellow and blue skin and to the yellow flesh.

Let us note that these 3 varieties were crashed close one of the others:

· Lycopersicum capsiforme: I have never seen this tomato but I know that it looks like a tomato of the shape of a hot pepper and is red.

· A tomato "pineapple" with regular leaf

· OSU56: this 56th tomato was the 3rd of her(it) grappe2 of my plant2.

This tomato of 40 g was flat and had 5 rooms.
101LB (stemming from a seed of OSU56) gave 11 tomatoes:
1000AB:une tomato looking like round mother OSU56) red and blue skin, in red flesh.
From 1001AB to 1011AB: tomatoes with yellow and blue skin and with yellow flesh.


Sept 25 1001AB.jpg

I represent every tomato in this way:

The double column of the top contains the crossing from which arises the tomato (the name of the mother first of all followed by the name of the father) followed by the number in genealogy (F1, F2))
In the high square to the left of the second line is situated the photo of the tomato on the plant.
In the high square to the right of the second line is the photo of the tomato with or not sepals and peduncle.
The following double column contains the received reference number the crop year (the last figure of the year followed by a three-digit order number and two letters representing the tester (AmBiorix here).
In the high square to the left of the fourth line is the photo of the navel of the tomato.
The fifth line indicates the name given to this tomato partner in its reference number.

Remark: there was here of new a fortuitous crossing with OSU56.Some pollen was transported every time of stamens of a variety towards a pistil of another variety).

Here is the family tree of certain tomatoes obtained in 2011:

Sept 25 1000AB1004AB.jpg

I obtain two kinds of tomatoes:
1) Tomato with red and blue skin and with red flesh: a copy of the tomato OSU
2) Tomato with yellow and blue skin and with yellow flesh.

d) 2012

Sept 25 2012.jpg

Is in accordance with the fact that I call " Ananas bleue ": a tomato with yellow and blue skin and with flesh yellow as a tomato pineapple not blue.
The taste becomes sublime.
But the 2096AB contains too much red among the yellow of the flesh.

e) 2013


I intensify the tests and I compile then the photos of about twenty tomatoes collected on different plants resulting from seeds resulting from previous years.
I begin to keep a complete genealogy of the obtained results.


I give some examples.

1) One of my testers crashed 12 plants resulting from 12 seeds of 1001AB.He obtained a plant with tomatoes in the shape of hot peppers with a little blue on the top of the tomato.
Other plants gave tomatoes " ananas bleues " shape.
This proves that there was a crossing enter a typical tomato OSU with lycopersicum capsiforme.

Sept 25 3000PY.jpg

Sept 25 3044PY.jpg


2) Another tester worked on a descendant of 1001AB

Sept 25 101LB 3035AL.jpg

Sept 25 3135AL.jpg

We discover here two other anomalies:
The skin of the tomato is red and blue but the flesh is yellow and there are only 3 rooms.
On the other hand this one has a large number of changing rooms. It is the daughter of 1004AB thus it is F3.

Sept 25 3146GP.jpg

We want to obtain every year of tomatoes " ananas bleues" shape, it is necessary to eliminate the not corresponding tomatoes because their seeds are going to continue to degenerate year by year.
If we want to exchange or to give the seeds of these tomatoes, it is necessary to be rigorous all the time.
At the moment, we know that a tomato pineapple blue has to have a yellow and blue skin, that the flesh must be yellow and that is needed a large number of rooms.
I always gave seeds to every person who me one asked, I have never sold any seed.
I always ask every person who receives seeds to send me photos and some seeds of tomatoes corresponding to these tomatoes.
Most of my testers send me their photos and their results.
I can follow so this variety from generation to generation.









It is the reason why every tomato receives a reference
number
according to the year and from the conductor of seeds.

Some people did not ask for the authorization and sell
seeds by
copying the concerning information these pineapple blue.
But they sell seeds stemming from not corresponding
tomatoes
resulting certainly from first generations (F2, F3).
Most of the buyers are then disappointed because
"ananas bleues" are not stabilized yet and because
the sellers sell these seeds without scruples, without
deleting the seeds of not corresponding tomatoes
just for the money.
It is the reason why, I decided in 2014 that the
tomatoes which
bear the name of " ananas bleue " are quite declared
not corresponding and that this name is only reserved for
seeds before 2014.


f)2014

I consulted the results of 50 different tomatoes results from several testers and I gave different names according to certain criteria.
1) The reason why, there were many disappointed people who bought seeds wherever a seed on 2 gave tomatoes to red flesh to such a point that several people believed that "the tomato pineapple blue had the red flesh ".
On 2013, I had already noticed that it occurred sometimes.

I called up this In tomato: “La Nana Rouge” (THE RED GIRL)

In here is two examples:

Sept 25 4621AB.jpg

Sept 25 4647AB.jpg

This red tomato can be in several copies identical on the same plant because the seed sowed at first had the genes determining this red tomato. (4621AB)
Or
A tomato or two are red on a plant also having tomatoes with yellow and blue skins and with yellow flesh.
The flowers which gave this result had received from some blue and red pollen of a variety and we see the result.
If you thus sow seeds of these two red tomatoes you will obtain or yellow tomatoes with yellow flesh or red tomatoes with red flesh.
Thus these seeds must not be given or exchanged you have a stabilized said no tomato.
This phenomenon is the same which gave birth to the first yellow and blue tomato with yellow flesh. (4647AB)

It is the just return of things: insects can thus play on us tricks in our depend.


2) The blue tomato with yellow and blue skin and with yellow flesh bears now the name of “Ananas Bleu”.

Only the navel can be surrounded with red as the real tomato pineapple not blue.

Sept 25 4065MT.jpg


3) If the skin is orange and blue and the orange flesh it is a “ORANGE bleue”.

Sept 25 4066FQ.jpg


4) If the skin is red and yellow with the blue and the flesh is red and blue, it is a “Mangue Bleue”.

Sept 25 4028AB.jpg

Coming up next: The genetics of the crossings

[Gardeneer]

I just have a simple question :

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN indigo rose AND indigo apple ? Are they related ?
Thanks
Gardeneer

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

I just have a simple question :

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN indigo rose AND indigo apple ? Are they related ?
Thanks
Gardeneer

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Indigo_Apple


http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Indigo_Rose

Two different breeders, and two different varieties.

The origins of both are mentioned and/or linked to, so you decide if they are closely or distantly related or not related at all.

Carolyn

[Gardeneer]

Thanks

The original cross [of I A] was made by PKS Heirlooms. One of the parents is OSU Blue.

Quote from Tatiana

The reason I asked :
1- I am growing Indigo Rose
2- Few weeks ago in somebody's garden , i saw a plant that looked almost exactly like my IR and it was labeled " INDIGO APPLE". That is both the plant/size/foliage and the fruits were identical.
Also I did a google image search. The same results.

Gardeneer.

[remy]

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

I just have a simple question :

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN indigo rose AND indigo apple ? Are they related ?
Thanks
Gardeneer

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

Thanks


Quote from Tatiana

The reason I asked :
1- I am growing Indigo Rose
2- Few weeks ago in somebody's garden , i saw a plant that looked almost exactly like my IR and it was labeled " INDIGO APPLE". That is both the plant/size/foliage and the fruits were identical.
Also I did a google image search. The same results.

Gardeneer.

Being Indigo Rose was released in 2012 (maybe some got seeds in 2011) but for all intents and purposes 2012, and Indigo Apple came out a year later, I would say that are one in the same as being an F5 a year later is impossible.
Remy

[Gerardo]

Hello Ambiorix, thanks for all the info. If I read this correctly, your recommending to NOT disseminate seeds of any type if there were "blue" plants co-mingling with them + the presence of pollinators?

As a home gardener, I find it impractical to bag blossoms in order to produce seeds that are identical to the parent.

Can you elaborate a bit on the "invasiveness" of the blue traits please. Many thanks.

[Ambiorix]

I would explain all this by examples but at first it is necessary to explain at first simply some rules of the genetics of the crossings.

I am classifying all my photos and those of my testers.
( + 20.000) .J' expect some more from results of year 2015. It is a big part with report to be realized in French at first, my mother language and then to translate all this for the good to make me understand.

It is the mattering work that I want to show to all.

[joseph]

To directly address the title of the thread as it applies to my own life, I don't care if tomatoes conform to any particular phenotype. I don't care about heirloom tomatoes. As far as I'm concerned a tomato is a tomato. I don't care about genetic purity. I like for the genetics of my tomatoes to drift over time. I believe that unstable tomatoes are more valuable to me and to my future and that of my people.

I thought that the blue tomatoes I have tasted were insipid, but that's my opinion of tomatoes in general.

I believe that a centralized authority regulating which particular genetic combination constitutes a specific named variety is not necessary, and indeed couldn't be maintained. Genetics are simply not stable... No matter how hard we attempt to impose order on life, it's simply too chaotic to comply. I doubt that it would even be possible to define something as simple as "What is an heirloom". Besides, even if you exclude heirlooms today, the clock has already been ticking on blue tomatoes for 6 years now... If your definition of heirloom includes a time frame of something like 50 years, then in another 44 years many varieties of blue tomatoes will start obtaining family heirloom status.

I tend to mock people that were calling blue tomatoes "heirlooms" the first year that they were publicly sold. No matter how the definition of heirloom is distorted, I just can't bring myself to believe that a variety released this year is an heirloom.

If blue tomatoes eventually show up in my garden, then I'll treat them the same as any other tomato: Screen them for taste, for productivity, for resistance to bugs, etc...

One nice thing about having a gene for blue fruit running around in tomatoes is that it might show people the reality about how much cross pollination is really going on in their supposedly stable heirlooms.

[Darren Abbey]

If you want a tomato variety to remain "pure", you will always have to isolate and bag the flowers... no matter what other tomato is or isn't growing nearby. The "blue genes" are in no way special in this regard.

I don't want my tomatoes to remain the same from year to year, so I don't take any care to isolate plants or bag flowers. There is no danger associated with genetic recombination, aside from the danger that your sensibilities might be harmed by a tomato not being exactly like it was last year. If you want conformity in your tomatoes, you will have to do the work required to maintain it. This is no different than for other crops.

It is apparent you have a great deal of practical knowledge regarding growing tomatoes, but your questions suggest gaps in your knowledge of the basic biology. This isn't a problem, so long as you ask questions.

Originally Posted by Ambiorix

Do we really know the truth on the creation of the first blue tomato?

Yes, "we" in the general sense really do. You may or may not, but that depends on how much research you've done. A good starting point is: http://journal.ashspublications.org/...2/262.full.pdf

Originally Posted by Ambiorix

How and why this insipid tomato at first became very delicious when it was crossed with Heirloom varieties?

In a general sense, it happened because the insipid tasting progeny of those hybrids were discarded while the tasty ones were kept. This is referred to as selection. It sounds simple, but it is a very powerful process that drives the change of tomatoes/fruit/etc. over time.

However, it isn't known at the level of what specific genes and alleles are involved. Developing such understanding is a major research project. The basic process might start with what is called Quantitative Trait Analysis (http://www.nature.com/scitable/topic...analysis-53904). It would likely take many years and significant monetary investment to clarify precisely what changed and why those changes resulted in the change in taste of the tomatoes. This sort of research has been performed to help determine why tomatoes come in such range of sizes and shapes (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1461635/).

All the while tomato breeders will have been using selection to move the development of tomatoes forward in leaps and bounds, without any consideration for the precision such a research project might in time provide.

Originally Posted by Ambiorix

How and why some pollen of the flowers of this tomato can be transmitted in Heirloom varieties and introduce so the blue gene in these varieties?

The answer is pretty much the basic biology of how flowering plants reproduce. If you instead mean to be asking about genetics, how traits are passed from parents to progeny, there are many resources available (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendelian_inheritance; https://www.ndsu.edu/pubweb/~mcclean...el/mendel1.htm; many others). The "blue genes" are in no way special cases, especially when compared to all the other specific genes that have been identified in tomatoes (http://tgrc.ucdavis.edu/data/acc/genes.aspx).

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by Darren Abbey

If you want a tomato variety to remain "pure", you will always have to isolate and bag the flowers... no matter what other tomato is or isn't growing nearby. The "blue genes" are in no way special in this regard.

I don't want my tomatoes to remain the same from year to year, so I don't take any care to isolate plants or bag flowers. There is no danger associated with genetic recombination, aside from the danger that your sensibilities might be harmed by a tomato not being exactly like it was last year. If you want conformity in your tomatoes, you will have to do the work required to maintain it. This is no different than for other crops.

It is apparent you have a great deal of practical knowledge regarding growing tomatoes, but your questions suggest gaps in your knowledge of the basic biology. This isn't a problem, so long as you ask questions.



Yes, "we" in the general sense really do. You may or may not, but that depends on how much research you've done. A good starting point is: http://journal.ashspublications.org/...2/262.full.pdf



In a general sense, it happened because the insipid tasting progeny of those hybrids were discarded while the tasty ones were kept. This is referred to as selection. It sounds simple, but it is a very powerful process that drives the change of tomatoes/fruit/etc. over time.

However, it isn't known at the level of what specific genes and alleles are involved. Developing such understanding is a major research project. The basic process might start with what is called Quantitative Trait Analysis (http://www.nature.com/scitable/topic...analysis-53904). It would likely take many years and significant monetary investment to clarify precisely what changed and why those changes resulted in the change in taste of the tomatoes. This sort of research has been performed to help determine why tomatoes come in such range of sizes and shapes (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1461635/).

All the while tomato breeders will have been using selection to move the development of tomatoes forward in leaps and bounds, without any consideration for the precision such a research project might in time provide.



The answer is pretty much the basic biology of how flowering plants reproduce. If you instead mean to be asking about genetics, how traits are passed from parents to progeny, there are many resources available (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendelian_inheritance; https://www.ndsu.edu/pubweb/~mcclean...el/mendel1.htm; many others). The "blue genes" are in no way special cases, especially when compared to all the other specific genes that have been identified in tomatoes (http://tgrc.ucdavis.edu/data/acc/genes.aspx).

Thank you for posting this I found it difficult to explain what you explained so very clearly.

Again thank you very much.

Worth