the great brandywine sudduth production controversy

markferon · February 4, 2006

Ok i know this is touchy subject for some, but I think, i have figured out what the problem maybe by reading gardenweb, organic gardening tomato mania message boards.

1. brandywine sudduth is listed as having close to an 80 day dtm.
2. I have looked at the plant out times list by many of the posters.

Looking these facts I have notices several problems.

1. People having production problem seem to be both in the more northern and southern areas of the usa.
2. the plant out time of many of the growers run into
2 problems in the south the out plant times run into extreame heat before production hit full steam and in the north the the cold seem to limit the season to a few fruits be fore frost hits. I am not talking about the really cold areas.

those who seem get good production seem to be in the middle of the two.

the funny thing is that the solution for the problem areas seems to be the same solution. It is that most people may not realize it. I may be calling down the a major flame war down because of this.
But the problems seem to point to one solution.

Getting the plants planted out earlier then is recommend in the problem areas.
I gotten late maturing large , medium, and paste varieties as early as may 15 by using a combination of Walls o water, home made hoop houses, and other little tricks. I can't see why with little ingenuity the same type tricks can't be used to get a longer production period for brandywine sudduth. But what do they have lose if they don't try except a few test plants and seeds.

Maybe, the reasons for bad production are because, those who don't get good production are not setting up good growing beds and using good planting methods. I can not tell since they rarely describe those when they complain about bad production.
markferon

Mantis · February 4, 2006

You are correct in what you say Mark. My tommys get planted out in the greenhouse at the start of the second month in winter. They set loads of fruit before the heat kicks in. Not everyone has a greenhouse I know but using any advantage to get the plants going earlier than normal would help.
Brandywine Suddeth is actually very close in production to Soldacki and Zogola in my greenhouse. I grew one voluteer PL that I suspect was a Brandywine outside and it hasn't set one fruit.
Mantis

**nctomatoman** · February 4, 2006

My answer is - Urban Legend! Many, many of the larger fruited heirlooms are just as tempermental as Brandywine. It is just the relative popularity of it, as well as the many theories running around, that these sorts of views become set in stone.

markferon · February 4, 2006

nctomatoman

maybe your right and the brandywine sudduth poor production complaint is an urban myth.

Suze · February 4, 2006

My answer is - Urban Legend!

It does pay to set this one just a bit earlier in the South and maybe give the plants a shake (as with many other varieties *cough*), but pretty much -- yep, Urban Tomato Legend!

**mdvpc** · February 4, 2006

I have not grown it for just this reason-but I know that other large-fruited varieties like M's Peace or Earl's Faux just do not do well for me. But I still try one or two every year-I had already decided to start Faux real early and leave it in my greenhouse until almost May 1 to see if that will wire around the problem.

Catntree · February 5, 2006

Sudduth does very well here in Maine...better than unknown BW. It's one of my main crop varieties.

Sudduth seems to have low production because the tomatoes are so darn good

Regular BW did very well in my field this year.

I do start the longer season varieties a little earlier than usual, hopefully gallon pot sized for plant out. I did that last year and BW was the first to set fruit, LOL

michael johnson · February 5, 2006

I always thought that the main reason Brandywine -Sudduths strain didnt produce very well was because of its very long stigma that protrudes much longer past the end of the stamens than any other tomatoes therefore making it much more difficult for pollination to take place either by insect or by hand.

markferon · February 5, 2006

michael johnson most likely another urban legend put out by someone with to much time on there hands or confused about something else.

michael johnson · February 5, 2006

well- urban legend or not, I know for a fact that one of the strains of Brandywine has this problem with the elongated stigma but I cant remember which one now as its a few years since I last grew this particular one myself and had to hand pollinate all the flowers.

I have grown various strains of brandywine in the past but I cant quite remember which one I had that trouble with, but it was only one with the elongated stigma and I think it was a pink variety ( probably Sudduths ).

markferon · February 5, 2006

Do you know it for a fact or did someone relay it to you as a fact.

**carolyn137** · February 5, 2006

Michael,

I'm not aware that any strain of Brandywine has exerted stigmas as part of its genetic makeup. And I mean Brandywine, not Red B or Yellow B or any of the other varieties with Brandywine in the name.

Once a blossom is pollinated the stigma always ends up in the exerted position b'c that's the normal progression of the process of pollination.

Which strains of Brandywine have you grown?

And you don't think it was an environmental factor that caused it since such factors can influence stigma exertion, but that's an evironmentall induced change that can happen occasionally and not a genetic trait.

Carolyn

Mantis · February 5, 2006

I find that Brandywine suddeths have an abundance of pollen. One can tap out pollen from ready flowers onto ones pinkie, and dab it on any flowers that are ready.

markferon · February 5, 2006

guess we can now chalk most of the myths and rumors about this variety as solved.

PS thank goodness this is a nice place.

ps ps remember last one to leave gardenweb forum turn off the light.

Fusion_power · February 6, 2006

Agree that Brandywine is a very productive tomato, also that it does not produce very well if planted late here in the south.

The biggest problem I've seen with Brandywine is that folks don't put enough fertilizer down for it. Its a very heavy feeder by comparison with many other tomatoes. I've put as high as 20 pounds of rabbit manure around a single plant and was rewarded with 50 to 100 tomatoes per plant!

Fusion

February 4, 2006	#1
markferon Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Maryland Posts: 68	the great brandywine sudduth production controversy Ok i know this is touchy subject for some, but I think, i have figured out what the problem maybe by reading gardenweb, organic gardening tomato mania message boards. 1. brandywine sudduth is listed as having close to an 80 day dtm. 2. I have looked at the plant out times list by many of the posters. Looking these facts I have notices several problems. 1. People having production problem seem to be both in the more northern and southern areas of the usa. 2. the plant out time of many of the growers run into 2 problems in the south the out plant times run into extreame heat before production hit full steam and in the north the the cold seem to limit the season to a few fruits be fore frost hits. I am not talking about the really cold areas. those who seem get good production seem to be in the middle of the two. the funny thing is that the solution for the problem areas seems to be the same solution. It is that most people may not realize it. I may be calling down the a major flame war down because of this. But the problems seem to point to one solution. Getting the plants planted out earlier then is recommend in the problem areas. I gotten late maturing large , medium, and paste varieties as early as may 15 by using a combination of Walls o water, home made hoop houses, and other little tricks. I can't see why with little ingenuity the same type tricks can't be used to get a longer production period for brandywine sudduth. But what do they have lose if they don't try except a few test plants and seeds. Maybe, the reasons for bad production are because, those who don't get good production are not setting up good growing beds and using good planting methods. I can not tell since they rarely describe those when they complain about bad production. markferon

February 4, 2006	#3
nctomatoman Tomatoville® Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Hendersonville, NC zone 7 Posts: 10,385	My answer is - Urban Legend! Many, many of the larger fruited heirlooms are just as tempermental as Brandywine. It is just the relative popularity of it, as well as the many theories running around, that these sorts of views become set in stone. __________________ Craig

February 4, 2006	#6
mdvpc Tomatoville® Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 4,386	I have not grown it for just this reason-but I know that other large-fruited varieties like M's Peace or Earl's Faux just do not do well for me. But I still try one or two every year-I had already decided to start Faux real early and leave it in my greenhouse until almost May 1 to see if that will wire around the problem. __________________ Michael

February 5, 2006	#7
Catntree Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Maine Posts: 177	Sudduth does very well here in Maine...better than unknown BW. It's one of my main crop varieties. Sudduth seems to have low production because the tomatoes are so darn good Regular BW did very well in my field this year. I do start the longer season varieties a little earlier than usual, hopefully gallon pot sized for plant out. I did that last year and BW was the first to set fruit, LOL __________________ Zone 4/5

February 4, 2006	#2
Mantis Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Oz Posts: 1,241	You are correct in what you say Mark. My tommys get planted out in the greenhouse at the start of the second month in winter. They set loads of fruit before the heat kicks in. Not everyone has a greenhouse I know but using any advantage to get the plants going earlier than normal would help. Brandywine Suddeth is actually very close in production to Soldacki and Zogola in my greenhouse. I grew one voluteer PL that I suspect was a Brandywine outside and it hasn't set one fruit. Mantis

February 4, 2006	#4
markferon Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Maryland Posts: 68	nctomatoman maybe your right and the brandywine sudduth poor production complaint is an urban myth.

February 4, 2006	#5
Suze Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 3,027	My answer is - Urban Legend! It does pay to set this one just a bit earlier in the South and maybe give the plants a shake (as with many other varieties cough), but pretty much -- yep, Urban Tomato Legend!

February 5, 2006	#8
michael johnson Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: UK. Posts: 960	I always thought that the main reason Brandywine -Sudduths strain didnt produce very well was because of its very long stigma that protrudes much longer past the end of the stamens than any other tomatoes therefore making it much more difficult for pollination to take place either by insect or by hand.

February 5, 2006	#12
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	Michael, I'm not aware that any strain of Brandywine has exerted stigmas as part of its genetic makeup. And I mean Brandywine, not Red B or Yellow B or any of the other varieties with Brandywine in the name. Once a blossom is pollinated the stigma always ends up in the exerted position b'c that's the normal progression of the process of pollination. Which strains of Brandywine have you grown? And you don't think it was an environmental factor that caused it since such factors can influence stigma exertion, but that's an evironmentall induced change that can happen occasionally and not a genetic trait. Carolyn

February 6, 2006	#15
Fusion_power Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,250	Agree that Brandywine is a very productive tomato, also that it does not produce very well if planted late here in the south. The biggest problem I've seen with Brandywine is that folks don't put enough fertilizer down for it. Its a very heavy feeder by comparison with many other tomatoes. I've put as high as 20 pounds of rabbit manure around a single plant and was rewarded with 50 to 100 tomatoes per plant! Fusion