Gathering some interesting data on seed age vs germ success

[nctomatoman]

My seed collection is aging (yes, I am too!)....and I decided to plant a flat of tomatoes that ranged way back in age to see if they are still viable - so I am going to get results of some varieties as old as 1991 saved (19 years old) - some 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, and 1998 (which has already emerged in 5 days).

I've done nothing special with them - no pre-treatment - just planted them the same way I do all of my seed....will let you know what happens. I am hoping these do make it - amongst them are Brandywine one generation removed from when I got it from the SSE - ditto Cherokee Purple.....

[mdvpc]

Glad you are doing this, Craig. It will be interesting to see about your germination. You might also want to post how you have kept the seed-my recollection is that you dont do anything special, like freezing, etc.

[nctomatoman]

Nope - my seed is in glass screw cap or plastic snap top vials, and are sitting in my office at whatever temperature my office is.....today I noted emergence in the cell of one of the 1997 saved seed - so that is 13 year old seed showing life in 6 days.

My gut feeling is that the cut off will be at 13-14 years where things get iffy...but we shall see.

[ireilly]

This is an interesting thread to me, as I have been trying to germinate some older seed, although not as old as some you are working with.

Carolyn sent me some older seed as part of her offer at my request too because I wanted to work with some varieties I don't have, and see what the germination rate was using her method as well as others I have read about.

I don't have any gibberellins (yet), so my methods are limited to moisture, medium, light and temperature, and permutations of those to see what breaks the dormancy.

I also have been reading the 3 volumes by Norman Deno published in the 1990s about germination (of more than just tomatoes). Fascinating.

Deno says that a dry seed is a dead seed. I know people freeze seeds and to do that, many say the moisture level has to fall below a certain threshold to prevent ice crystals from forming (non-cryogenic freezing methods). But some people use silica gel to keep seeds dry enough to prevent problems associated with too much moisture.

My (long, drawn-out) question is this. Do you think that Deno is correct, and is the drying out of the germplasm what kills seeds? I know Carolyn has said that tomato seeds can be alive for as long as 50 years, and that is probably an outlier statistically, but Deno says that dormancy "codes" are things that are so complex no one yet understands how to wake up seeds in a completely repeatable fashion (assuming the seeds are not dead).

I wonder what the Svalbard bank does in regard to moisture before and after freezing, although I suspect most seed is kept in cryogenic storage.

Walter.

[nctomatoman]

Thanks for that post - so my little experiment should shed some light peripherally on some of the questions. Since I don't dry my seed down to specific levels (they dry on plates in my dining room for a few weeks), don't store with any drying agent, don't use any temp or humidity control, we can use my results as one baseline data point - what happens to seed saved with no special conditions and started with no special treatment, over time? I am really anxious to find out what I get.

In the past, I've noted that often older seed has a problem with stuck seed coats, or there is a larger percentage of mule plants (just two cot leaves, no growing tip) - so we will be looking at quantity of seedlings as well as quality.

[Tormato]

I have some Ace 55 seeds from 1965. These were stored in a deep freeze until 2008, with no special treatment since then. Germination in '08 took 4 days. I'm going to try a few more this year, to see what happens.

Tormato

[ireilly]

Originally Posted by Tormato

I have some Ace 55 seeds from 1965. These were stored in a deep freeze until 2008, with no special treatment since then. Germination in '08 took 4 days. I'm going to try a few more this year, to see what happens.

Tormato

Wow. That is impressive. 45 years. I was but a sprout myself then.

[brokenbar]

When we moved to Mexico, my Husband wanted me to throw out "all that old seed that is no good that you have had in the freezer forever" (he also wanted me to throw out all the frozen colostrum and both bull and stallion semen I had stored in my tank...TOTALLY NON NEGOTIABLE!)

I am heartened to hear about the results some of you are getting on this old (shall we say "dated"?) seed. Thanks so much for NCTM for starting this thread!
I did/do store my seeds in a vacuum bag in the regular freezer and have previously germinated some 6 year old squash seeds and some equally aged tomato and pepper seeds with very good result(s).

This is a GREAT thread

[fortyonenorth]

Brokenbar - thanks for the laugh. I always enjoy your posts!

Rich

[puttgirl]

I'm eager to see your results, too, NC-since I have plenty of seed at least ten years old. I store mine about the same way also, I've never frozen seed and don't use dessicant since reading years ago that overdried seed wasn't as viable.

[dice]

[Re: Svalbard]
They probably are working with this research or equivalent
as a guide for selecting optimum conditions for seed archiving:
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archiv...8/seed0998.htm

[ireilly]

Originally Posted by dice

[Re: Svalbard]
They probably are working with this research or equivalent
as a guide for selecting optimum conditions for seed archiving:
http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archiv...8/seed0998.htm

Thanks, that was a great article. I thought the statement about the glass compounds that prolog viability being produced in beans only in the last few days was also significant.

The article was from 1998, although I had never read it before. I wonder what these seed scientists have found since then. They certainly had complex instruments even back then. The scanning micrograph was good stuff.

[nctomatoman]

So we are day 7. Here are the results so far:

Seed saved in 2003 (8 years old) - emerged in 4 and 5 days (both up)
Seed saved in 2001 (10 years old) - emerged in 4 (two varieties), 5 (two varieties), and 6 (1 variety) days - all five up
Seed saved in 1998 (13 years old) - emerged in 5 days (one variety, and it is up)
Seed saved in 1997 (14 years old) - emerged in 6 and 7 days (both up)
Seed saved in 1996 (15 years old) - one emerged in 7 days, two yet to show.


Seed saved in 1995 (16 years old) - no emergence on the four varieties yet.
Seed saved in 1994 (17 years old) - no emergence on the three varieties yet.
Seed saved in 1993 (18 years old) - no emergence on the single variety yet.
Seed saved in 1991 (20 years old) - no emergence on the four varieties yet.

So at day 7 (still a long way to go! I had a few varieties this year - peppers, eggplants and Mexico Midget) take 20 days or more to pop). But currently the cut off is between 15 and 16 years seed age.

[kevinrs]

Somehow I have a package of 1990 baxters bush cherry tomato seeds from burpee, the yellow envelope you got when you ordered from them. They were opened and some used in 1990, no special storage or anything, they've sat in an open coffee can at room temperature for years with a bunch of other seeds. I did a paper towel germination test, no presoak, no fertilizer or anything, and I got 100%(10/10) germination from them this year. I have a pack of yellow pear from the same source and order and only at 1/10 so far.

[nctomatoman]

Life peeking above the soilless mix line on one of the 1995 saved seeds....so that makes 16 years at least borderline oK (got to see germination percentage and seedling quality)....day 8 for that seed. Will do another check later tonight - a day of sunshine coming through the window on the flat typically brings on some progress - we shall see.