NY Times "Vintage Seeds vs Hybrids" story

[rsg2001]

Hi All,
I don't know if someone else posted this, and I apologize if that's already the case. On March 24th, in the Home section, the NY Times published "Vintage Seeds or Flinty Hybrids" bringing up the old saw that heirloom seeds were not as tough as hybrids. Here's the link below: You should be able to read it without registering (The NY Times allows you to see 20 articles before hitting you up to buy a subscription now.) The piece isn't just about tomatoes, though a good part of the article addresses tomatoes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/24/ga...torello&st=cse

The piece does try to play the question even-handedly. It opens by quoting Rob Johnston, chairman of Johnny's, saying that while a fan of heirlooms, his typical customers have better choices (and also taste) with so-called modern hybrids. And while it quotes John Torgrimson of Seed savers, Jere Gettle of Baker Creek Heirloom Seeds, and a number of other experts on the advantages of heirlooms, the reporter Michael Tortorello spends a lot of time quoting George Ball of Burpee. Ball says "heritage seeds" have outpaced the rest of Burpee's seed line and they've added more varieties to the catalog. But Ball also claims "Heirlooms were varieties that were so unsuccesssful that they wouldn't be sold today...Every product declines until it's replaced by new heirlooms." Please read it for yourself - would be interested in everyone's point of view on it. My favorite thing to hear was Mr. Gettle saying new gardeners and younger gardeners are overwhelmingly interested in heirlooms.

[fortyonenorth]

If you can get past the first few paragraphs and the comparisons of heirloom vegetables to a 1936 Oldsmobile, it's actually a fairly well presented, balanced article. My favorite passage:

“A 1902 cabbage by Burpee was a perfectly good cabbage by 1902 standards,” Dr. Navazio said. “But the truth of the matter is, none of our ancestors ever viewed these things as done. You never stopped breeding your livestock. You never stopped selecting your cabbage.”

Then there's George Ball...what can I say? Mr. Burbee is surely groaning in his grave.

[Fusion_power]

I agree with the sentiment that an heirloom was NOT intended to stay the same forever. Amerindians selected seed for improvement by always saving seed from the best. We should be looking for improvements, not to stop the clock and keep a variety exactly the same year to year.

We happen to have some heirloom varieties with excellent prospects. Eva Purple Ball tomato for example has outstanding production and some tolerance to Septoria. It needs some work on flavor. Heidi is an excellent determinate paste tomato with very good heat tolerance. Give it a bit better tolerance to early blight, late blight, and septoria and it would be a phenomenal improvement.

It takes time, lots of time, to make significant improvements in plants.

DarJones

[Ruth_10]

I think the disscussion should be between "open-pollinated" and hybrid. "Heirloom" is a sub-category of open-pollinated and just too laden with problems with definition, etc.

If everyone used open-pollinated seeds and saved them, a lot of seed companies would go out of business, so yes, a little self-serving bias might be at work with people like Ball.

That said, other than tomatoes, I use hybrid seed for most of the rest of my vegetable garden. No problem there.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

I agree with the sentiment that an heirloom was NOT intended to stay the same forever. Amerindians selected seed for improvement by always saving seed from the best. We should be looking for improvements, not to stop the clock and keep a variety exactly the same year to year.

We happen to have some heirloom varieties with excellent prospects. Eva Purple Ball tomato for example has outstanding production and some tolerance to Septoria. It needs some work on flavor. Heidi is an excellent determinate paste tomato with very good heat tolerance. Give it a bit better tolerance to early blight, late blight, and septoria and it would be a phenomenal improvement.

It takes time, lots of time, to make significant improvements in plants.

DarJones

Darrel, I can understand the indigenous Indians making improvements with their crops b'c there were many tribes that did so for various reasons, whether the Mandan or all the tribes of the Iroquois Nation.

But I prefer to believe that if an heirloom variety is already stabilized from long ago then it should stay that way. Call me a sentamentalist, or whatever, but for me an heirloom variety should stay the same. It even bothers me when someone comes up with a PL version of an original RL and states it's the same as the RL except for leaf form.

Now if someone wants to make some crosses, and you and many others are, and then introduce into the F1's you develop some genes for tolerance to this or that and perhaps an uneven ripening gene or high solids gene, etc., then I don't have any problem with that, and when genetically stable a person could name it what they want to b/c it would be or should be a new variety.

What would bother me is if someone used a well known family heirloom and bred into it this or that gene and continued to call it by the original family heirloom name.

I'm not against trying to find varieties, OP family heirlooms, that are tolerant of this or that, all I'm asking is what's wrong with preserving what others before us genetically stabilized and grew to the point where it was known as a family heirloom.

I know my position may run counter to what others feel about this issue but I really do feel that an Eva Purple Ball or Neves Azorean Red, or whatever, should remain as it was first discovered and as we know it today.

And speaking to the two varieties you mentioned above, Eva Purple Ball and Heidi, you know I introduced both of them and they're two of my successful tomato kids so please don't mess them up by altering them, pretty please?



Just my 3.54 cents.

[barkeater]

George Ball must be getting senile! “Heirlooms were varieties that were so unsuccessful that they wouldn’t be sold today”? What does he say Burpees biggest selling seed line is today? Heirlooms!

[rsg2001]

Eva Purple Ball is one of my absolute favorites, and I don't think its taste needs improving... I also like growing a variety of different tomatoes in my smallish garden, both heirloom and hybrid. Still, I'm happy to hear that the up and coming generation of gardeners are thought to be among the most enthusiastic of heirloom-growers, since that will mean that the efforts to perpetuate the old varieties will continue, validating the work of Carolyn, Craig and all the other experts who have devoted themselves to this endeavor.

[ireilly]

Oh boy, I usually stay out of these things, because there's no perfect answer to all the issues. Plus that usually raises someone's ire.

All I'll say is that there's nothing wrong with either approach. I understand the approach to preserve what has been developed (the breeders probably know how much work it is to get there too).

I also see that there can be improvement - and constant improvement. And how desirable traits that arise, while able to be helped along, are really a gift to the breeder.

But I would say that it is unclear how genes can be valuable in terms of resistance to diseases, especially new and/or catastrophic diseases, or extreme changes in climatic conditions, until such conditions arise.

Analogs in human genetics provide a model for this paradigm. I'm sure some of you saw that it was a genetic trait related to resistance to bubonic plague hundreds of years ago that produced resistance to HIV in a few humans. Or the residual immunoresistance to smallpox, or the resistance of the so-called Spanish Flu survivors to the new H1N1.

(Side note - there's a great article on drug-resistant microorganisms in this month's Scientific American - sobering too)

So preserve the varieties, extend the varieties, do it all.... and preserve the germplasms in cold storage against the times, manmade or not, ahead that may test us all.

JMO

[KevinCT]

it's not an either/or thing with me,I like them both, and they each play a role in my garden. Strange every time I read an article with George Ball he really comes off as a crank. I don't get his anti heirloom position. Is he concerned seed savers are going to put him out of business or something, it's kinda bizarre.

Also whats wrong with 1936 Oldsmobile? Thats a perfectly fine vehicle

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by KevinCT

it's not an either/or thing with me,I like them both, and they each play a role in my garden. Strange every time I read an article with George Ball he really comes off as a crank. I don't get his anti heirloom position. Is he concerned seed savers are going to put him out of business or something, it's kinda bizarre.

Also whats wrong with 1936 Oldsmobile? Thats a perfectly fine vehicle

I think you have to look at George Ball's background to understand his position.

He and his sister Anna were priciples in the Ball See Co based in Chicago. They were primarily developers of hybrid flowers and GEorge spent a lot of time in the Caribbean working with hybrid impatiens, for instance.

When he bought the Burpee Seed Co he had to divest himself of all stock and interest in the Ball Seed Co but his background and interests led him to strongly believe that hybrids were better than anything OP.

For a long time if you went to the Burpee website there was an article there written by him saying that the only way that world hunger would be alleviated was by growing hybrid vegetables.

But he was out of touch, saw the trend towards OP's, actually heirloom varieties, and decided to bring out a catalog specifically featuring them. I don't know how many of you saw that catalog.

He had asked Kees Sahin in the Netherlands, whom I knew very well, to help him a bit and Kees did what he could, but that catalog was so filled with errors it was embarrassing.

Kees suggested that George and I talk, and we did, several times, and mostly what I got from him was some history as to when John Peto left Burpee and set up Petoseeds in CA and took with him many stock seeds to do so, including Teddy Jones, which is one of the parents of Big Boy F1 and became one of the parents of Better Boy F1 as bred in CA.

There was some kind of dinner celebration for something and someone I know well was sitting next to George and he made a ferw comments about me and my strong stance on heirloom varieties, not so positive actually, which of course got passed on back to me.

Then George decided to expand Burpee into sattelite nursery centers. that failed and the company went into bankruptcy. He consolidated and after quite a few years they got out of bankruptcy.

When I look at the Burpee catalog now I blanch, same for the Cook's Garden one as well, b'c a few years ago GEorge bought out the Ogden's who had divorced, and took over that company.

When I got the catalogs for both this year I was really upset b'c variety names had been altered in many instances and the ratio of huge pictures to actual variety listings had continued to increase.

For so long Burpee was the go to place for home growers everywhere, but those days are over with. If David Burpee could see what happened to his company he would not be pleased.

So no, George is not a crank or whatever, it's just that he's always believed that hybrids are better, whether they be flowers or fruits and vegetables. He tried to adapt to the new trend of heirloom varieties when he brought out that separate catalog but that was a bust and many of the heirloom varieties were wrong for the variety, Cherokee Purple was one of them.

Perhaps you can now better understand where George is coming from.

[b54red]

I have grown several hundred hybrids over the years and many with great success and if I were a large scale commercial grower I would have to go with them because of the necessity to have a more consistent crop. The ability of diseases like fusarium and TSWV to nearly wipe out a tomato patch make it very difficult to not use a hybrid with resistance to those plaques of this area.

As for me a home gardener, I now make OPs the vast majority of my plantings each year. The variety of tastes, colors, shapes and textures is just so much more fun and interesting than when I was growing mostly hybrids. Now I am always excited to see how the new varieties I am trying will grow and taste each year. I really enjoy saving seed from varieties that do well for me and exchanging those seed with others.

I still grow a few hybrids. I grow Big Beef and Jetsetter for the certainty of production of a decent red tomato. I grow Brandy Boy and Sungold for the taste alone. I still remain open to trying the occasional new hybrid and would love to plant one that had the taste of say a Stump of the World, Black Krim, Druzba, JD's Special C Tex,KBX,.......................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................................................

[carolyn137]

Yes, hybrids are more consistent in most years and I've grown quite a few myself. But hybrids were developed primarily for commercial growers and the reistances/tolerances for the various diseases don't usually totally prevent the soilborne diseases for which they were developed, and a few more spread by insects, but the plants don't last that much longer than those without those tolerances.

However, just a week or two more is sometimes crucial to the large scale commercial grower b'c they do Brix readings ( soluble sugars) to determine when to harvest and and that extra time can make a huge difference to them in terms of higher Brix readings.

The foliage diseases are THE most common ones and with few exceptions that are minor, there are no varieties that have tolerance to them, and I mean the two fungal ones Early Blight ( A.solani) and Septoria Leaf Spot, and the two bacterial ones Bacterial Speck and Bacterial Spot.

Someone will say that this or that OP variety never got this or that foliage disease but whether or not someone's plants gets them in any one season is dependent on whether they're around in that season b'c they're spread by air and embedded in raindrops. And if there's been a previous infection then also by splashback infection.

I know of few folks who will grow a variety every single season for many years in orfer to know what its susceptibility to a particular foliage pathogen might be. No doubt there are some OP's that show more tolerance than others but to date there are no good genes that have been IDed for Septoria LEaf Spot, alth0ugh I know some folks who are working on that, and the same for Early Blight. However the quest for Early blight tolerance has been going on for a very long time, the two major players have been Dr. Tom Zitter at Cornell and even more so Dr. Randy Gardner at NCSU and as Randy told me once, what he's developed has meant that a commercial farmer can spray maybe every 7-8 days where before it would be maybe 4-5 days, but that's a huge money savings for the commercial farmer.

The only two hybrids I'll be growing this summer are Mountain Magic F1 and Smarty F1 b'c and this will be the third year I'm growing them, thanks to Randy Gardner who bred them for sending me the seeds and enough seed that with his permission I distributed seed for those two plus PLum Regal F1 here at Tville.

And I'm growing them b'c they are consistent in terms of production and I need them for munching on when I watch tennis on TV.

[KevinCT]

Thank you Carolyn
for the very interesting background story on Mr.Ball, from the articles I've read that he's been quoted in (mostly in the New York Times), he always left me with the impression that he was a bit of a cantankerous fellow, now knowing his background with Hybrids I can see why he pushes them so strongly. His dislike of heirlooms I assumed had to do with seed sales, based more on good business and less to do with science.

One thing I find funny is ,he has a habit of using cars when making analogies. When he closed the Heronswoods nursery a few years ago, he compared Burpee to a Ford and Heronswoods to a Jaguar. In his opinion I wonder what kind of car a Teddy Jones would be? An Edsel maybe

Thanks again for the story, I always enjoy reading your insightful responses.

[fortyonenorth]

Originally Posted by KevinCT

When he closed the Heronswoods nursery a few years ago, he compared Burpee to a Ford and Heronswoods to a Jaguar.

For those of you who aren't familiar with this story, Heronswood was perhaps THE premier collectors' nursery for rare perennials and woody plants. The nursery was started and built by Dan Hinkley and Robert Jones. Dan, one of the most prolific plant hunters of the last few decades, populated Heronswood with plants from around the globe - very many of them his own discoveries from Asia and elsewhere. A number of years ago he sold to George Ball - likely for the same reasons anyone in his position would: to make some money; spend more time on the "plant" side of things and less on the "business," etc. etc. If my memory serves, Dan was to stay on in some capacity. In any event, things didn't work out. Dan left very soon after the sale. Heronswood - the nursery - was shuttered within a year or so of the original sale. Heronswood "the business" was to be moved out to Pennsylvania and continues to operate as a Burpee company. When things went sour, Dan offered to buy back the company - or maybe just the nursery - for the same amount he had sold it for. George contended it had appreciated about six fold in the course of a year.

[salix]

Every time I think about Heronswood, tears come to my eyes. A complete travesty. I have many of their catalogues, I don't know whether they have more merit as a source of information, a collection of very fine writing or simply works of art. That whole debacle seems almost criminal in my mind.