Graft hybrids

[J Peazy]

This is my first post, sorry if this is not the correct forum.

Has anyone here noticed changes in adult plants from seeds taken from a grafted tomato?

I suppose I'm asking if grafting creates inheritable changes.

I have looked at other gardening forums and found heated debate (mendelian vs. lysenkoism) but that's it.

I found a site that was selling rootstock that had warning boilerplate stating that grafting may change fruit. Nothing was said about changes in subsequent generations of plants.

If you have even anecdotal experience with this, I would be interested.

Thanks,

[dice]

It could change the flavor a little (more robust supply of this
or that than the original, native root system). It is not going
to change the inherited genes in the seeds, which all come
from the scion and pollenator (self-pollenated or
cross-pollenated).

[Stepheninky]

Seeds will be true to type.

[lowlylowlycook]

If the roots would change the seed's genetics then sports wouldn't sometimes lead to new varieties.

[J Peazy]

Here's an example. Maybe it's all bunk.

I understand that the common knowledge is that there is no genetic exchange but I have always had a problem with common knowledge.

This article says that genes aren't transfered over long distances. Perhaps the blooms are too far from the graft site to genetically alter seeds.

http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketsci..._trade_gen.php

[Heritage]

J,

Great post - I'd be curious to know the truth myself and hear of any first-hand experience growers have had. It seems to me an unlikely possibility, but stranger things have happened. It seems if genetic material IS exchanged it would be a quick way to develop new OP varieties. It would also have huge implications for those who graft and then save seed for sale or trade. I hope, until it can be proven either way, that commercial growers and those who trade seed don't disseminate seed from grafted plants while presenting them as the original OP variety.

We've done some grafting this year so will save seeds and replant to compare. I won't sell or trade any seed from grafted plants (and represent as the original variety) until I am confident there is no genetic exchange.

Steve

[dice]

Interesting article.

These genes were shoved into the genome of its chloroplast,
the small structures that allow plant cells to photosynthesise
and that contain their own separate genetic material.

How was this done exactly? Using a viral or bacterial carrier?
Was this microorganism still alive in the gmo stock and
scion after genetic modification? Did they even look to see?

I think one would have to find exchange of DNA between
stock and scion where neither had been genetically modified
to definitively say that there is evidence that this happens.
(Genetic modification may change stock and scion plants
in additional ways that the study was not tracking, making
gene exchange possible where it may not have been possible
in unmodified plants.)

It is possible that it simply happens regardless of whether
stock and scion have been genetically modified, of course.
I am only saying that if someone has already introduced a
carrier organism to enable that exact process, DNA exchange,
are they seeing something that naturally happens or
a capability introduced to the plants by that very carrier
organism used for genetic modification?

[dice]

Since there is genetic testing for vegetables available, it should
be direct enough to do a follow-up experiment to test that
what they are seeing is a native capability of plants and not
something introduced to them by the (biological, chemical)
machinery of genetic modification.

Graft some OP scion to half a dozen different OP rootstocks,
including OP tomatoes, wild tomatoes, eggplant, Maxifort,
etc, and then do a before genetic test on the scion growing
on its own roots and an after test on seeds saved from grafted
plants that have been grown in isolation and see if there is any
change in the DNA in the grafted plants. There would be a small
possibility of mutation in the scion skewing the results, but one
can grow enough plants of each graft and of the scion
growing on its own roots to statistically minimize that possibility
in the results.

[J Peazy]

http://www.bulbnrose.org/Heredity/Gr...ftHybrids.html

[Heritage]

Originally Posted by J Peazy

http://www.bulbnrose.org/Heredity/Gr...ftHybrids.html

If you Google "Lysenko's Agrobiology" you'll discover an interesting history of a scientific scandal in the Soviet Union and the politics that may have influenced this study.

[Heritage]

Originally Posted by dice

Since there is genetic testing for vegetables available, it should
be direct enough to do a follow-up experiment to test that
what they are seeing is a native capability of plants and not
something introduced to them by the (biological, chemical)
machinery of genetic modification.

Graft some OP scion to half a dozen different OP rootstocks,
including OP tomatoes, wild tomatoes, eggplant, Maxifort,
etc, and then do a before genetic test on the scion growing
on its own roots and an after test on seeds saved from grafted
plants that have been grown in isolation and see if there is any
change in the DNA in the grafted plants. There would be a small
possibility of mutation in the scion skewing the results, but one
can grow enough plants of each graft and of the scion
growing on its own roots to statistically minimize that possibility
in the results.

I agree, it seems as if it would have been proven already if it was true. Makes me think there probably isn't any genetic material exchanged at the seed level.

[J Peazy]

I knew about the scandal. There had to have been some validity to the research - too bad we don't know where fiction and fact were "grafted".

The paper did make a good point. Look at the wealth of great varieties that you recognize as Russian. If any of these are products of the research in any way, I suppose that is good enough for me.

[J Peazy]

To continue beating a dead horse:

Here is a Chinese study detailing changes in grafted mungbeans. From what I understand of the study, the authors seem to conclude that the change mechanism is unclear but change does seem to occur in subsequent generations.

http://www.bulbnrose.org/Heredity/Mu...mungbeans.html

I guess I'll see for myself.

[J Peazy]

It's all above my head. I'll be planting seeds from grafted plants over the next few years. The main reason that I asked is because I was concerned about a rootstock like Maxifort. I hear that Maxifort fruit never ripens and is terrible. I wouldn't want my future generations to have bad fruit because of some genetic crossover years back from a rootstock.

I may use Sungold or Sophya as a rootstock instead of Maxifort or Beaufort.

Here's another article I found. It looks like it was taken from an old textbook or journal. It covers tomatoes grafted to nightshade.

Thanks all,
J Peazy

[Heritage]

J,

Did you do any tomato grafting this year? It will be an interesting experiment to replant the seed. It looks like (with the mung beans) that the effect doesn't show up until the second to seventh generation. The last article also has some references of results with other vegetables, including peppers.