Amending soil in raised bed???

[barryla61]

Haven't done anything to this bed over the years besides add some compost so I'm trying this.
Put a layer of old rotten sawdust/horse manure mix about 4-6 inches thick on it the sowed rye in it. We had ample rain and hot weather in the few weeks after so now I have a lush carpet of green about 8 inches tall.
My question is should I let this grow thru the winter and try to work it in during early spring or till this in now and sow it with rye again?

Here's the bed.

[Redbaron]

Why not just mow it and put the clippings in a black plastic bag or mix with a compost bin?

[dice]

What kind of rye? If it is winter rye, it will go more-or-less dormant
in freezing weather, then start growing again in the spring. By the time
you are ready to plant next spring, it will be chin high. Usually you
want to cut it down as soon as you see flowers in late spring to early
summer, so it does not self-seed in your garden (become a weed).

[b54red]

You need to till it in now before it can develop the large knots at the base which make it nearly impossible to til in. I made the mistake of letting it grow one winter and had to use a shovel and turn over every inch of the bed by hand then wait a few weeks to allow it to rot before I could start working the soil. It put me way behind on my planting and it was a lot of backbreaking work.

[riceke]

Originally Posted by b54red

You need to till it in now before it can develop the large knots at the base which make it nearly impossible to til in. I made the mistake of letting it grow one winter and had to use a shovel and turn over every inch of the bed by hand then wait a few weeks to allow it to rot before I could start working the soil. It put me way behind on my planting and it was a lot of backbreaking work.

I tend to agree with B54Red. Once that rye gets its root clods deep you will play h**l trying to get it transformed into a friable soil. Cut the top down and leave in place and then dig in the roots before they get too big. Even if you spade it in it has a tendancy to regrow so tilling it in is best if you can. But I wouldn't wait too long.

[dice]

Mature winter-rye is hard to work in with a shovel relative to many
other cover crops. I do not bother turning in the top growth when
I use it. I just rake that off to the side and save it for mulch. No-till,
you are done, the summer heat will kill off the stubble if it has flowered.

I have turned the stubble over, along with a layer of leaves on top
(with "compost maker", a 4-4-2 organic fertilizer, sprinkled over it
to compensate for nitrogen drawdown) in a new bed that I wanted
to deepen the tilth in.

I've tried the sawdust/horse manure a few times with bad luck. Others claim to have experienced very good results with it. I had to add copious amounts of nitrogen to compensate for the nitrogen draw down from the rotting sawdust. When the sawdust finally decomposed, the low nitrogen condition reversed and became an excess nitrogen condition. I don't know if hardwood sawdust and softwood sawdust have the same results. My sawdust was mostly aged pine chips used in horse stalls.

My best results in raised beds has been with pellitized alfalfa sold as horse feed in fifty pound bags. It's fairly inexpensive and mixes easily with the soil in the beds. I apply it generously and the earth worms love it.

Ted

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by tedln

I've tried the sawdust/horse manure a few times with bad luck. Others claim to have experienced very good results with it. I had to add copious amounts of nitrogen to compensate for the nitrogen draw down from the rotting sawdust. When the sawdust finally decomposed, the low nitrogen condition reversed and became an excess nitrogen condition. I don't know if hardwood sawdust and softwood sawdust have the same results. My sawdust was mostly aged pine chips used in horse stalls.

My best results in raised beds has been with pellitized alfalfa sold as horse feed in fifty pound bags. It's fairly inexpensive and mixes easily with the soil in the beds. I apply it generously and the earth worms love it.

Ted

I may have your solution. This is an old trick.

Ferment it first. But before you do that add 1/4 old moldy spoiled hay. (ie 3 parts sawdust manure to 1 part old hay) Basically it is the old concept of the manure pile packed down tight and fermenting anaerobically for a few months. Small scale would be in black plastic lawn bags sealed tight.

Then in the spring you have to compost it aerobically a couple weeks before using it. (add air by tumbling or mixing it and "fluffing it up") This will kick it before you apply it to your raised bed so you don't get the nitrogen swings.

One way to do effectively the same thing as your pellitized alfalfa is actually grow an alfalfa cover crop and either work it in the soil or mow it and save the clippings in a no till scenario.

PS You are not the only one to notice the difficulties with nitrogen in sawdust bedding. It is a VERY tricky thing. So the old hay is a way to level off the extremes.

Originally Posted by Redbaron

I may have your solution. This is an old trick.

Ferment it first. But before you do that add 1/4 old moldy spoiled hay. (ie 3 parts sawdust manure to 1 part old hay) Basically it is the old concept of the manure pile packed down tight and fermenting anaerobically for a few months. Small scale would be in black plastic lawn bags sealed tight.

Then in the spring you have to compost it aerobically a couple weeks before using it. (add air by tumbling or mixing it and "fluffing it up") This will kick it before you apply it to your raised bed so you don't get the nitrogen swings.

One way to do effectively the same thing as your pellitized alfalfa is actually grow an alfalfa cover crop and either work it in the soil or mow it and save the clippings in a no till scenario.

PS You are not the only one to notice the difficulties with nitrogen in sawdust bedding. It is a VERY tricky thing. So the old hay is a way to level off the extremes.

I bought a six cubic yard dump truck load of it about four years ago. It had already composted for one year by turning with a front end loader quite often. It looked great but still didn't work very well without additional nitrogen being added. I also didn't like the hard crust it formed on top of my beds when it got wet from a rain and then dried out.

After a couple of years, I dug most of it out of my beds and replaced it with a good, sandy loam fortified with alfalfa pellets. I don't use cover crops during the winter because I usually have other stuff like lettuce, cabbage, and turnips growing through the winter. I do love winter rye and use it between my beds and as a lawn grass around the property. It really does improve the soil through the years.

I also have a large compost pile which has been composting and fermenting for about five years. I have added garden waste, fallen leaves from many trees, lawn clippings and many other organics to it every year. I'm thinking about filling a couple of beds with the compost next spring and see how that works.
Ted

[dice]

One issue with winter rye (cereal rye) is that it flowers
a bit late for winter cover crop use in some long-summer
climates. I am usually cutting it a week before it is time
to transplant, for example. In some place farther south,
it might not even be close to flowering when you get to
your average last frost date.

In that case, you can still cut the top growth and use it for
mulch later, but you need to jump through some extra hoops
to keep it from growing back in the summer and becoming
a weed instead of a winter cover crop. That could include
tilling in the stubble, covering it with newspaper, cardboard,
or a stout weedblock, killing it with vinegar or high-concentration
hydrogen peroxide (something that acts fast and will not persist
in the garden), etc.

[halleone]

It sounds like winter rye is more trouble than it is worth. I think I will try some of Peaceful Valley Farm Supplies easy care cover crop blends next year. Or the Nitro Persian Clover. It really needs to be easy to turn under for me, I'm not getting any younger.

[dice]

It sounds like winter rye is more trouble than it is worth.

That depends on your locale. This far north, it works out ok. It provides
good support for hairy vetch when the two are mixed together, and
it has no trouble surviving winter freezes.

According to this chart, http://newfarm.rodaleinstitute.org/f...ll/chart.shtml
its main benefits are adding organic matter to the garden or field
(biomass), supressing weeds, and recycling nitrogen left over from
a summer crop (instead of letting rain leach it down below the root
zone).

It is not recommended in root-knot-nematode prone areas. Winter
peas are reported to work better in Florida, for example.

It does a good job of filling clayey soil with roots. When I turned over
the stubble in a mostly clay bed where a fir tree had grown for
around 100 years before it fell over, the top foot of dirt looked
like turning over sod after the winter rye crop. Those roots decay
and provide organic matter, worm food, drainage channels, etc.
It is a not nitrogen-fixing cover crop, so mixing it with hairy vetch
is a good idea.

As for Red Baron's suggestion to mow it now and mix the top growth
into compost, I never tried that, so I do not know if that will set it back.
Figure that if grass is still growing in your area, winter rye will still
grow, too.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by dice

As for Red Baron's suggestion to mow it now and mix the top growth
into compost, I never tried that, so I do not know if that will set it back.
Figure that if grass is still growing in your area, winter rye will still
grow, too.

Well Dice I am a fundamentally lazy gardener. I never use a shovel when a mower will work, and I would never use a mower if I can find an animal like a chicken, cow, rabbit or goat to eat it instead. As long as the rye is still in the "blaze of growth" stage, it wont kill it. If it is beginning to flower it may kill it, but so what? Those roots won't decompose too fast in winter. Next spring just paper a barrier and lay your mulch and compost layers on top (lasagne). Some people Lasagne in the fall instead, but again, I am too lazy to do it in the fall. And why? I would rather start the decomposing in the spring instead, so it helps heat up the soil.

Winter rye is a fantastic cover crop. It is a TREMENDOUS soil builder. The fact that it is difficult for some people to turn into the bed seems like an advantage for me. It is awesome as far as I am concerned. But hey, I garden a bit different than most people. I actually love weed growth too! That means all the more organic matter that decomposes when I cover it with paper and mulch! More food for worms.

[Redbaron]

Well tedln,

I can't really say for sure going just by the internet. When it comes to compost and manure, especially that with high sawdust content. I would actually have to see it first hand, dig my hands into it, smell it, get to know it first hand. No way to know if it fermented properly to begin with, without looking for that tangy alcohol smell. No way to know if it "kicked" properly after without digging into it and feeling the heat and smelling the change into a more earthy smell. No way to know if it is done without breaking it up and feeling the texture. But hay, grass clippings etc... mixed in with it can help.

But I can tell you this. The concept is to make sure FIRST it ferments, then after, kicks like normal compost. The anaerobic fermenting breaks down the cellulose with fungus and yeasts that like wood, the simpler compounds then are digested by different aerobic micro-organisms when you "kick it". Then a whole other set of flora and fauna like worms finish the job when it is ready for the soil.

Wood (Sawdust) is notorious for not being easy to "digest". If it was easy all our trees would rot and fall over! But once it does it is very good for the soil.

If it is making a "crust" on the top in the garden, then you haven't covered it with hay straw or grass clipping mulch! You definitely need that!

[ScottinAtlanta]

I am going to try the mulched kudzu leaves this year. Easy to get here in Ga (our local park has hired goats to eat it), and I like the idea of getting some good out of kudzu.