Need advice on seed starting infrastructure

[KathyDC]

Hi everyone!

I've just bought all the structure necessary to start seeds and now need to decide on the actual flats etc. that I'm going to use. So my setup is going to be, basically, a 48" long shop light on chains over a shelf. Right now I just have one shop light but plenty of room to expand. It will be located in my basement which has very little natural light.

I'm finding myself stumped when it comes to what to get to actually put the seeds into. Right now I'm leaning toward this (http://www.gardeners.com/Deep-Root-S...&q=deep%20root) because I don't want to have to be transplanting things into other pots until it's basically time to just put them into the ground -- maybe that's unrealistic though. I like the capillary mat and the reservoir that allows you to water from below. Anyway but I don't want to go throwing good money after bad.

So, what do you think? I would welcome your suggestions for setups that might work and not break the bank. I'm sure this sort of question is asked regularly so please feel free to point me to old threads.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by KathyDC

Hi everyone!

I've just bought all the structure necessary to start seeds and now need to decide on the actual flats etc. that I'm going to use. So my setup is going to be, basically, a 48" long shop light on chains over a shelf. Right now I just have one shop light but plenty of room to expand. It will be located in my basement which has very little natural light.

I'm finding myself stumped when it comes to what to get to actually put the seeds into. Right now I'm leaning toward this (http://www.gardeners.com/Deep-Root-S...&q=deep%20root) because I don't want to have to be transplanting things into other pots until it's basically time to just put them into the ground -- maybe that's unrealistic though. I like the capillary mat and the reservoir that allows you to water from below. Anyway but I don't want to go throwing good money after bad.

So, what do you think? I would welcome your suggestions for setups that might work and not break the bank. I'm sure this sort of question is asked regularly so please feel free to point me to old threads.

Here is an old thread: http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=437

Personally I only use part of his method though. I start them dense in old trays I bought seedlings and saved and egg cartons for some things, and when it comes to transplanting in bigger pots I use homemade paper pots and leave them outside under a cold frame. Basically my seed starting budget is zero except for the soil. Pretty much the same though. His vids on YouTube explain it well.

[Gardadore]

Kathy,

There are many good approaches to growing successful tomatoes. You can spend as little or as much money as you wish and be successful. I am a simple home grower and use different methods but can tell you I have the Deep Root System you are considering buying (15 cell one shown) and really like them because they are so sturdy and reusable. They can go in the dish washer at the end of the season.

Tomatoes do seem to thrive on being transplanted a couple of times but I don't think it's mandatory. (others can correct me on this)
I don't start the seedlings in the Deep Root containers just because they are large and I think the seedlings do better being moved to a fresh mix at least once. But if you choose to start them there just fill the container only half way so you can add mix as they grow. Otherwise they will get tall and spindly and not develop as good a root system.

Others on this site will give you tons of excellent advice but if you can handle transplanting them once I would suggest trying the following:

Start them either on damp paper towels (which I fold and place in a plastic bag) OR in small used 4 or 6 cell annual seed pack containers OR any other kind of small container you have handy (yogurt cups work). I know people who use egg cartons! I just have tons of old cell packs! Once they sprout I transplant the paper towel seedlings into the cell packs or other small container until they are large enough to be moved to the Deep Root ones.

Seedlings started directly in the cell packs or other containers should be transplanted to the Deep Root ones once they begin outgrowing the cells. From there you can wait until they are large enough to go outside. If I can't get the seedlings planted soon enough in the spring I may even transplant from the deep root to a larger container if the plant is getting too big. But in DC it is warmer than here so you should be able to get them in earlier.

Use a soilless mix like coir or a good Starting Mix. I also add worm castings when I transplant.

If you want to save money and not buy the Deep Root containers you can use 16 oz plastic cups instead. I get them at the Dollar Stores. You can mark the outside with the name of the variety.

Remember when transplanting to the the Deep Root or Plastic Cups, don't fill them to the top. I fill them half way, plant the seedlings and keep adding more soil as the plant grows. This helps the roots develop better.

The reason I use towels is that I see pretty quickly which seeds are viable and what are not. I don't waste time or container space waiting for seedlings to sprout. But it also sometimes happens that seeds sprout in the containers before the towels! It usually only takes a few days in the towels to see the germination. You have to decide for yourself. Bounty should be paying me commissions as I find them the best!

Important!! Regardless how you start them, as soon as the seeds germinate and are in any kind of container put them under your lights so they grow nice and straight.

Whether you direct plant (try a few and see if it works well) or transplant up you have to cull all the advice and find what works best for you! You sound like you are off to a good start with a light set up at least. A lot depends on how many tomatoes you want to plant in terms of what you buy. Good luck!! Have fun!

[Gardadore]

Redbaron,

You posted while I was writing my post. See Kathy, an egg carton man!!

[Hotwired]

I start about 1500 plants from seed and I'm beyond frugal. Here's my methods http://www.hotwiredgardens.com/pdf/G...d_starting.pdf . At the price of seeds, I like to plant one seed per cell and then transplant into yogurt cups. NCTomatoman's (above link) dense planting system is probably not for you if you're only starting a few plants.

[KathyDC]

Thank you everyone for the answers so far! Hotwired, I probably won't be starting too many inside this year just because my outside space isn't really prepared for it. That's going to be my next question to put to Tomatoville in another spot. However, I'd eventually like to ramp up significantly to where I'm starting maybe 40 or 60 seedlings of all kinds -- veggies and flowers both.

But this year I'll be looking to start probably 2-4 kinds of peppers, and about 8-10 kinds of tomatoes. I'm trying wintersowing for my flower plants this year. I'd love to be able to raise more tomatoes but I'm hampered partially by very poor soil in my back yard (cheap fill dirt the developer we bought our house from used that contains rocks/bricks/glass atop the area's naturally clay-heavy soil) and lack of time to dig/install an amended bed in my back yard. That'll be a project for the next year or two probably.

My general plan is to plant tomato seedlings into 5-gallon buckets with part of the bottom cut out, so the plants get lots of good amended soil as it grows up through the bucket, but can also root down into the ground through the hole cut out. Something like this (http://annieskitchengarden.blogspot....ole-in-it.html). But, that's a topic for another post entirely because I am probably going to need to devise some other kind of anchoring system than that rebar; it looks like a little more than I can handle myself.

[KathyDC]

Gardadore, thanks for the advice! I could probably handle doing something like that, and I have been saving all my old cell packs from the nursery since last year so I have plenty of that sort of thing to work with. I'm a little nervous about transplanting successfully but nothing ventured nothing gained.

[Gardadore]

I have just been looking over the old thread that Redbaron posted. It is truly an awesome method but I plant a maximum of 50 tomatoes and each one is different so it isn't in my interest to plant so many to a cell. I always plant a minimum of 3 seeds to a cell just in case and wind up giving away a lot of tomatoes. This year I will plant about 35 varieties if that. It is the transplant method of Craig's that has me mesmerized! Boy he makes it look easy and has inspired me. The 5 gallon buckets should work well. I plant most of mine in straw or hay bales and an additional 5-6 in 5 gallon coir bags (plastic bags with holes in them filled with coir plus amendments). That has worked well for me as well. I am always learning so you posed a great question and I am enjoying the other responses as well!

[Father'sDaughter]

Originally Posted by KathyDC

I'm a little nervous about transplanting successfully but nothing ventured nothing gained.

I was told early on in my seed starting adventures that the trauma of being up-potted actually makes some seedlings stronger in the long run. Wait until they have a couple of true leaves, and they should do fine!

[KathyDC]

Finally got time this morning to look through the thread from nctomatoman and his videos. What a great way to start a ton of seeds. I never would have believed it was possible to get that many seeds to germinate in such a small cell. I wonder if he grows his tomatoes all in those bags on his driveway or if he eventually has to transplant again?

Gardadore, how do the bags work for you? How tall do the plants get and how do you handle supporting them, do you just put a cage around the bag?

Hotwired, also looked through your PDF - also great information! I feel much more confident that I can find a way to make this work for me. I especially like how you harden off the plants, because I also work during the day and I think I would have trouble keeping up with a graduated schedule of exposure while being away from home during a normal workday. Can I ask, how long do you leave them outside during the day like that? Would you just take them back inside at night? Do you still have to do graduated exposure (I'm guessing not). How long does the hardening off process take overall while using this method?

Thanks for the info all!

[Gardadore]

Kathy,

I use the plastic bags mainly for cherry tomatoes, dwarfs and other determinate tomatoes. They do very well in them. I do put cages over the bags. These are my favorite: http://www.gardenharvestsupply.com/P...45.htm#details

Maybe you can find them cheaper elsewhere but that's a good company. This page shows other options. http://www.gardenharvestsupply.com/P...-Cages-c35.htm I also use the second one listed there. It is taller and convenient because you can move the bars as the plant grows. It is not as robust as using the metal cages but worked fine for me. I got mine at K-Mart. The one shown here my be stronger than the K-Mart one.

You can double the cages to make them taller if needed or buy fencing to attach to 6 ft. metal T-posts placed n a horseshoe shape around the tomato to tie the branches to. Our Home Depot carries the 5 ft. metal fencing that has been sprayed with green plastic so it is not too heavy for me to handle. It comes in 50 ft. lengths which I unravel, flatten out, and cut to fit my needs. In my large garden I have a heavier 6 ft wire fence strung all around it so just place the bags next to the fencing. I put the cone shaped cages (available in all big box stores) into those bags to keep them stable and tie tomato branches to the fence as they grow.

I also use wooden stakes to keep the plants upright when I first plant them outside whether it be in bales, ground, or bags.

I don't tend to plant beefsteak or other large indeterminate type tomatoes in the bags because those plants can get really large and heavy but if you have good caging around the bag it should be fine.

[baileyj]

Kathy, Gardadore,

I use a modified method of dense planting which works well if you are not planting so many of the same types of seeds.

I take a 55 cell tray and in each cell plant a variety...I only need 2-3 of each variety for tomatoes so I plant maybe 5 seeds in each cell of about 30 varieties. For peppers the same.

The broccoli, flowers etc where I need more than 2-3 plants...I plant about 10-15 seeds each in 2 cells.
I have read here that beets can be done this way but have not tried this.

I try to keep those seeds with similar germination times together to be able to best use the cell tray.

It takes me about 2-3 trays for all my starts. Once I need to transplant the fun (and expansion) begins. The 2 trays then become about 8-10 transplant trays.

I was hesitent to try this method, but have now been using it for a few years with great success. I was tired of having spotty germination in trays that waste valuable space under the lights and on the heat mat...this method eliminates the waste. I also have tried multiple kits, this one looks great but so..so expensive for so few pots.

Good luck...
JB

[baileyj]

Gardadore,

You plant cherry tomatos in bags? They are indeterminate and grow 12ft tall in my garden. I use earthboxes for all my vegetables with 10ft trellis for tomatoes.

I also have Global buckets with shorter/smaller cages which I use for determinate tomatos and peppers. This year I have several dwarfs that I am planning to put in these as well.

I have never tried bags for tomatoes but have used them for potatoes and garlic. I will be interested in exploring more uses for them.
Thanks for the ideas.
JB

[Gardadore]

Baileyj,
I like your modified growing system. I was considering doing something similar after watching Craig Lehoullier's video. I usually only start 3-5 seeds of each variety and now see it would be better to just put them all in one cell! I will only have about 40 tomato plants (all different) this summer but give away many for others to test. So you have the answer - thanks!
I know it sounds bizarre to plant the cherry tomatoes in the coir bags and they do get tall but don't seem as thick and heavy as the beefsteak or larger tomato varieties. Maybe it's because the tomatoes are so much smaller and therefore lighter. I can hang the branches over the cages or fencing and add stakes if necessary to which I tie wire for more branches to go over. I always have fencing or wire around the bags of some sort.
I am not using the newer grow bags found at places like Gardeners Supply. Mine were purchased from a gentleman on another site who was offering coir bricks combined with 5 gallon plastic bags with small holes in them. I still have some leftover bags and can refill them every couple of years with new coir (to which I add perlite and amendments). I make a hole in the ground to set them in which makes them sturdier and put straw on top to keep in moisture.
Your Global Buckets (I just googled what that is) seems similar to the e-Buckets which use only one bucket but employ a wicking system as well. They are probably much sturdier than the plastic bags I use but since most of my tomatoes are grown in straw bales I am fine with the plastic for now. I may try making some e-buckets or global types this summer.
You are inspiring me to reconsider using the earth boxes for some tomatoes. I usually prefer them for the eggplants, peppers, squashes, and ground cherries. How many tomato plants do you grow in your earth boxes? I have found that I can only grow 4 eggplants instead of the 6 they recommend and 2 zucchini squashes instead of the 4. They simply get too large!
So many options makes me dizzy but love to hear about them! Will be interested to hear how you fare with bags for your tomatoes!!

[KathyDC]

Well the deed is done! Yesterday I hauled everything down to the basement and put the shelf together, got the light set up and hung etc., so all I have to do now is figure out what kind of trays/growing medium I want to use. I'm still very unsure about the trays, but my nursery down the street has ProMix so I think I will be using that, as it seems to have a good reputation here.

Here's the final product http://s1156.beta.photobucket.com/us...6a65c.jpg.html. I think I will need another light fixture for that big shelf eventually! I hadn't realized they were quite so deep. Good ultimately as it means lots of growing space, but the light I have isn't quite wide enough I think.