Less is more, organic agriculture!

[Fusion_power]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-dev...ers-revolution

[Redbaron]

I read about those guys before. Those guys have the world record yields. But like anything else this says it all.

"If any scientist or a company came up with a technology that almost guaranteed a 50% increase in yields at no extra cost they would get a Nobel prize. But when young Biharian farmers do that they get nothing. I only want to see the poor farmers have enough to eat."-Anil Verma, agronomist

In fact it is happening all over the world. New organic methods are outproducing conventional time and time again. Yet I still see other forums pretending just the opposite. (by quoting outdated information) I guess you'll have to follow the money to understand why.

[bower]

Wow! That is awesome. I have to read more about this.

[bower]

Here is an excerpt from one report, about applying these methods to tomatoes:

"System of Crop Intensification (SCI) in Chilli, Tomato & Brinjal :
The seeds are treated with cow urine, warm water, vermi-compost, jaggery, trichoderma and the germinated or wet seeds are sown in nursery at 2 inches at either side of spacing. Organic environment is made in nurseries and seeds are sown at proper spacing. Compost and soils are treated with trichoderma. Every care is taken to minimize the shock by taking seedlings attached with soils. Then 8-12 days old young seedlings are uprooted carefully and transplanted in main field. Shallow transplanting is done. One feet deep and 0.5 feet diameter pit is made to provide conducive environment for intensification of roots. The farmers should provide favorable environment for the profuse root growth and shoot growth
is outcome of attention on roots. Proper irrigation channels are made to facilitate aeration in roots and 2-3 inter cultural operation is done by using SRI-Rabi weeder. The productivity enhancement is around 40-85%."

I guess this runs directly contrary to the practice of potting up tomato seedlings when they have filled the small container with roots...

[Redbaron]

Bower,
I was telling Tightenup a couple days ago that I typically transplant my seedlings much smaller than most. While I don't use their SCI system entirely, I do use some of the principles. I think most organic growers do. We may use tomato tone or other inoculant instead of cow urine and tricoderma, but the principle is the same. And all organic growers understand the benefits of worm poop!

It is interesting that from all over the world from separate independent sources many of these people are developing organic methods with many common denominators. I think what is happening is that pieces of information are being spread around and then independently developed to local conditions by local farmers. They end up with similarities because the principles of biology behind organic are fundamentally sound.

[bower]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

It is interesting that from all over the world from separate independent sources many of these people are developing organic methods with many common denominators.

Yes, I found it interesting that there wasn't too much "new" to me in these methods. We've been using raised beds since I first started gardening in the '80's. I have never used chemical ferts or pesticides - locally the organic materials are a bit different, but as you said, it's the same principle.
The early transplanting to relatively large growing space is a new idea for me though. I start my seeds in a flat and transplant to cellpak as soon as they shuck seed, then move to 4" pots or beer cups after the first set of true leaves. I switched to beer cups last year because I thought a deeper root structure might be better than the square pots. Either way, they stay in those for 6-8 weeks until they're over a foot tall before going into their permanent grow spot. By that time the cups are well filled with roots.
For those of us who are trying to get a head start on a short season, it may not be feasible to do otherwise - I just don't have room indoors for bigger pots... maybe if I could find some 'supersized' beer cups a foot deep....

[habitat_gardener]

Re transplanting outdoors at earlier stage in colder climates...
I also wait until the plants are about 6 inches high or so. But I recall reading that Trudi at Wintersown was planting tiny seedlings out in the garden under cloches -- iirc, instead of planting to 4-inch pots, she was planting out. I don't see anything about planting tomatoes on her new site, though.

My gardens are too far away to visit every day in winter-rainstorm weather. But I will try planting seedlings into a 5-gallon pot with a cloche. I use 1-gallon plastic water bottles for cloches.

[Fusion_power]

The basic concept with tomatoes is to set out a small but healthy plant and then emphasize early growth. My most productive varieties can churn out 80 pounds of fruit per plant with the right care. If I boosted the nutrient levels in the soil, I could probably double this. That would entail putting a 4 inch deep layer of manure on my entire garden which is not exactly a viable option at present.

DarJones

[dice]

In India, in particular, it is probably pretty warm when rice is planted.
Small farmers with no excess cash flow are not using greenhouses
to start seedlings. So there is no hardening off period.

At a glance, it sounds like a testament to providing a more aerobic
environment to the seedlings' roots during their first month
of growth and better plant spacing than was customary
before using this method. The seed treatment and trichoderma
are probably synergistic with the friendlier soil environment
during seedling establishment.

[mdvpc]

DarJones

When you say "emphasize early growth" what do you do to do that?

I think its wonderful that farmers are using local methods to increase their yields and their standard of living, instead of using big agri seed/fert.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by mdvpc

DarJones

When you say "emphasize early growth" what do you do to do that?

The early growth phase for tomatoes is before the first set of blooms. To emphasize the growth you will already have them planted in the ground and with a supply of readily available nitrogen. Later when they begin blooming and setting fruit, less nitrogen and more phosphorus.

Setting the plants out small and adding manures at transplant time are a great way to accomplish this. But you wouldn't want nearly as much free nitrogen after about 30 or so days. Rabbit manure is the best for a quick burst of nitrogen early and later high phosphorous with the added benefit that it also doesn't usually burn plants with too much nitrogen released too fast too early like chicken manure can sometimes do.

Chicken - N 1.1, P .8, K .5
Rabbit - N 2.4, P 1.4, K .6

Another key factor to consider is carbon. Rabbit manure is also much higher in carbon as are all herbivore manures. So rabbit horse goat and cow* manures are all usable in the soil with very little to no composting. You can get away with just "aged manure".

Omnivore manures like chicken and pig need carbon added (like straw or sawdust) and to compost to prevent burning of the plants and kill pathogens.

Carnivore manures are especially low in carbon and need to be well composted with a lot of carbon at high temps before using, both to lock the nutrients and destroy pathogens.


*Cows fed high grain stockyard diets need their manure to be treated like omnivore manure and well composted.

[Fusion_power]

Do everything you can to improve the soil before you plant. The biggest thing I see is gardeners think 2 dimensionally. The soil that a tomato plant can use is up to 10 feet deep. If you add nutrients to just the top 6 inches, then there is another 9.5 feet of soil that did not get amended. Yes, I know this is extreme. Sufficient nutrients can be added to the top 6 inches of soil to produce a crop, but I am not talking about just producing a crop. If you want to produce 10 to 50 times the amount of fruit per plant, then the soil should be amended to a depth of at least 2 feet.

DarJones

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

Do everything you can to improve the soil before you plant. The biggest thing I see is gardeners think 2 dimensionally. The soil that a tomato plant can use is up to 10 feet deep. If you add nutrients to just the top 6 inches, then there is another 9.5 feet of soil that did not get amended. Yes, I know this is extreme. Sufficient nutrients can be added to the top 6 inches of soil to produce a crop, but I am not talking about just producing a crop. If you want to produce 10 to 50 times the amount of fruit per plant, then the soil should be amended to a depth of at least 2 feet.

DarJones

2 feet of good fertile topsoil is awesome if you have it. But that kind of fertility takes a really long time to get. I had it in North Central Indiana years ago. It even brought tears to my eyes watching the neighbor farms slowly destroy theirs and turn it back to clay. Only one neighbor was actually working hard to make sure his soil remained the awesome premium fertile rich soil it was when his family first started farming it. He was a conventional farmer, not technically organic, but he understood soil like nobodies business! He also had a next to nothing chemical use and the smallest oldest tractor still being used in the county. (because he didn't need bigger)

But I don't see a reasonable way for most people to make any size real acreage that fertile if it isn't already. Not for many years. In my opinion unless you are already blessed with that rare perfect soil base, it is much better to aim for creating a good 3 to 6 inches of good topsoil, and trust that over the years gradually the worms will do their thing. So in that case all you can do is mix just the area around each plant with amendments by making an oversized hole when transplanting and mixing in manure and/or compost. Trying to speed along soil building on large acreage is not really reasonable. Even an oversized garden is a gargantuan task. The tonnage of carbon required is ridiculous. You just have to be a patient steward and know that 5, 10, 15, 20 + years from now, eventually you will reach that goal. Remember nature takes between 500 - 1000 +/- years per inch to make that premium topsoil. 2 feet would mean 10-20,000 years at least! We can speed that process up dramatically, but there are limits.

Please understand Dar, I am not saying you are wrong necessarily. What farmer or gardener wouldn't want 2 feet of premium topsoil? It would be ideal! But if you are realistic, people should realize an intact and functioning O and A layer soil biosphere, even if much less than 2 feet, is most important. In my opinion that's why raised beds and lasagna beds combined with proper rotation, companion planting, cover crops etc... work so well.

"I guess this runs directly contrary to the practice of potting up tomato seedlings when they have filled the small container with roots..."

I purposely didn't up pot my tomatoes this year from the cell packs where they germinated. I want to see how they perform when planted out root bound. They are about fourteen inches tall and doing great. I have started carrying them out daily to harden them off and they are a deep rich green in color. I also try to subject them to some windy days to strengthen the stems. My intent has been to plant out on or about March one, but looking at long range weather forecasts; it looks like we may have some hard freezes in the first and possibly second week of March. I can protect the plantings from frost, but not hard freezes. I am really concerned the plants will have outgrown their cell packs before I can plant them.

I have no idea what fits into the SCI protocol for organic growing, but I have some really big questions about it. I'm hoping to observe it for awhile and maybe my questions will be answered. Intensely mechanized, synthetic fertilized, and pesticide protected farming is probably about one hundred years old. I may have miscalculated by a hundred years or more. Converting wild plants to domesticated plants for food production is thousands of years old. I have a hard time rationalizing how the SCI techniques for improved production were not accidentally discovered and adopted over the previous generations. Our ancestors were not dumb. They were always trying new ways to improve crop yields before the words artificial and synthetic were even invented much less the techniques utilizing synthetic and artificial methods.

I Hope SCI is real. I would love to see Monsanto and other large conglomerate agribusinesses lose the strangle hold they currently have on world food production.

Ted

[mdvpc]

Thanks for the replies I am hoping with my wife and I move to San Antonio I will be able to garden in the ground. Where we are now, I grow in containers.