Is there such a thing as over tilling garden soil?

[nnjjohn]

I usually till twice , early spring like now to neaten things up.. and again just before planting.. is this okay or am I killing my garden worms too close to planting? Also, is horse stable mix (hay ,wood chips and horse manure )okay to tiller in before planting season tia, John

[delltraveller]

Tilling twice probably isn't a problem so long as you aren't pulverizing the soil. You need air spaces in there for drainage and for the tiny flora and fauna that work with your plants.

What's most important with the stable mix is to be sure and test it for herbicide contamination. Scoop some up in a pot and plant some bush beans from one of those inexpensive packets. Make sure the plant develops normally before you mix the material into your garden. Some of the newer herbicides used on pasture and hay does not break down as it passes through the horse, cow, etc. and is present in the manure. It can also be in the hay. It also doesn't break down in composting.

The second thing with the stable mix is to be aware of how far along it is in the process of breaking down, whether it's "hot". If it's still "hot", it will generate heat as it breaks down and it can cook your seeds and plants if you put them in too soon.

[nnjjohn]

Originally Posted by delltraveller

Tilling twice probably isn't a problem so long as you aren't pulverizing the soil. You need air spaces in there for drainage and for the tiny flora and fauna that work with your plants.

What's most important with the stable mix is to be sure and test it for herbicide contamination. Scoop some up in a pot and plant some bush beans from one of those inexpensive packets. Make sure the plant develops normally before you mix the material into your garden. Some of the newer herbicides used on pasture and hay does not break down as it passes through the horse, cow, etc. and is present in the manure. It can also be in the hay. It also doesn't break down in composting.

The second thing with the stable mix is to be aware of how far along it is in the process of breaking down, whether it's "hot". If it's still "hot", it will generate heat as it breaks down and it can cook your seeds and plants if you put them in too soon.

I already checked with that question at this particular horse stable ( these horses are polo horses for rich folk and the stable guy told me the stuff should work like gold, they feed oats grain and barely and all that good stuff.. doubt they would tell me otherwise , btw, not much hey if at all i seen filling my buckets,, it looks like manure and fine wood chip and dusty if anything.. definitely no worry of hey.. i doubt no herbicides, I'm pretty sure these folk feed the best money can buy as he explained to me... reason I ask though is because I read low nitrogen on my test kit. this stable farm is in Franklin lks nj been using it for three season now, it works well enough .. I was more concerned about the wood chips being too fresh and robbing any nitrogen while it gets tilled into the garden.. somewhere I read don't use wood chips. just so you know, I been getting this horse manure stable mix piled on top the garden during February.. just around a couple garbage cans per 100sq.ft area. didn't till today, waiting for free town soil.

[FILMNET]

No stay away, not worth is, it might take years to brake down

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by FILMNET

No stay away, not worth is, it might take years to brake down

So true and it would need to be composted first plus you would end up with a garden full of oats barley and other grains growing.

Not my idea of a good time.

Worth

[Cole_Robbie]

I would think of overtilling as creating soil erosion from wind and water, which is very climate-specific. In a drought like we had last year, it seemed liked any tilling was overtilling, because there was no soil moisture at all.

[Rock Hill Farm]

I Agree, Horse manure takes to long to break down, and by the time it does, it has been rained on so much it actually loses it's potency thru leaching. Another thing a lot of people overlook with Horse , cattle, and sheep manure is.. Medications. Higher end Horses, Cattle (Dairy), and the occasional sheep require regular medications for various ailments and supplements. Some of these medicines and supplements are synthetic I Think and never break down. Many Plants will pick up these residues unknowingly as Nutrients. Then geuss what? Your eating them in some form or another in your Produce. So when I go to pick up a load of Dung, I always ask before i load it, if meds were used. If so, then that manure goes in a seperate area for flower garden compost.

[bughunter99]

Originally Posted by Rock Hill Farm

I Agree, Horse manure takes to long to break down, and by the time it does, it has been rained on so much it actually loses it's potency thru leaching. Another thing a lot of people overlook with Horse , cattle, and sheep manure is.. Medications. Higher end Horses, Cattle (Dairy), and the occasional sheep require regular medications for various ailments and supplements. Some of these medicines and supplements are synthetic I Think and never break down. Many Plants will pick up these residues unknowingly as Nutrients. Then geuss what? Your eating them in some form or another in your Produce. So when I go to pick up a load of Dung, I always ask before i load it, if meds were used. If so, then that manure goes in a seperate area for flower garden compost.

I agree with all of this and will add that even if you have no concerns about secondary exposure to animal medications, remember that if the animal consumed hay that was treated with the herbicide aminopyralid, that herbicide STAYS ACTIVE even after digestion and for more than a year in the animal's manure. Thus spreading that manure over your soil may just impede most things other than hay from growing there. Many lawsuits about this out there already. Whole farming operations affected.

Stacy

[Worth1]

My idea of tilling is to till one way then the other(cross till).
Then I lay on compost peat moss and fertilizer and set the tiller on cultivate to mix it all in.
My tiller is a rear tine tiller with reverse rotating and forward rotating tines.
The till part digs in and the cultivate setting fluffs the soil and breaks up clots.
It also has a depth setting so you dont cultivate too deep.
Then I plant the plants or sow seed.

That is it for the year.

Worth

[bughunter99]

Deep tilling is general described as a no no in organic and other modern home gardener how to books. The reason is that soil structure and health is vital and deep tilling is believe to destroy the soil structure. Not only killing worms etc but also destroying the network of fungal hyphae that gives soil structure. This includes the mychorrhizal network that is so important to plants."

Roto-tilling dislocates and chops up small invertebrate animals (such as insects, worms and spiders), and bacteria, and it kills worms and destroys aeration and drainage. The soil looks nice and smooth, but it quickly looses structure, after a big rain.

According to Lowenfels, whose company is all about healthy soil, rototilling is an addiction, like lawns and coffee. "We till because early American's fell under the spell of an English country lawyer, Jethro Tull, who thought that roots eat soil particles and the smaller you pulverize soil, the easier it is for roots to eat it."

Quotes from: http://www.plantea.com/no-tilling.htm

[Redbaron]

Can you over till? Yes, it is possible.

However, I would like to point out that it is possible to do exactly what you described.

Some here have said do it, some said no. Both are right and potentially both are wrong. I know that doesn't help much, but it is a judgement call.

There are just too many factors to consider to make blanket statements.

For example, while it is true that woody material CAN rob nitrogen, and it CAN take years to break down, and the manure CAN hold herbicides, and it CAN contain weed seeds......It is also quite possible for the tilling of horse manure in wood chip bedding to be very beneficial. In fact the odds are it will be beneficial. You probably won't burn your plants with too much nitrogen or starve them with too little, you probably won't kill them with herbicides and you will, long run, probably actually improve soil structure & biodiversity.

Now personally I prefer organic no-till. It is easier and more fool proof. But I have grown both organic and convention till systems too. They both can work just great. All three can fail too!

Once again, it boils down to your judgement. For example, should you decide to till in a fresh load of manure, don't just blindly plant 2 weeks later. Check your soil. Is the material just sitting in the soil souring? Or has your micro-biota incorporated it quickly into fertile loam? Have the worms returned quickly? Temperature and moisture play key roles. Might want to wait a week more before planting. Are weeds and issue for you? Or do you garden with weed free methods? There just isn't any simple answer in every case, in every soil, in every climate, using every method.

Basically (with the exceptions many people already posted) what you describe is a valid and beneficial and well proven way to garden as a general rule of thumb.

[Worth1]

I have grown many a good tomato with just a common garden hoe.
Every day I would come home and dig up just enough grass to plant my plants.


Worth

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by Worth1

I have grown many a good tomato with just a common garden hoe.
Every day I would come home and dig up just enough grass to plant my plants.


Worth

[nnjjohn]

Good read.. I want to tiller this in soon, I already have used this same stable mix last few seasons.. I won't bother to do the front and side garden along the house,, just the two in the backyard that has the piles I dumped in february. My tiller is that green earth electric i bought on amazon few seasons ago.. this tiller is pretty darn good.. I can't imagine hoeing or pitch forking like I use to do before I got this tiller. I will tiller it in, cover the two gardens with the black roll plastic weed mulch and that should bake those gardens helping to break down the new stuff.. This season should be good on my end for gardening, I just hope mother nature cooperates. Eventually, I will take photos and post me in there too. I use cages and like to keep my tomato plants off the ground,,I grow about 3 dozen in separated gardens around my house. I think the plastic mulch helps not only for weed control but also helps heat the beds as well as block weeds.

[Ken4230]

Originally Posted by Worth1

I have grown many a good tomato with just a common garden hoe.
Every day I would come home and dig up just enough grass to plant my plants.


Worth

I have to agree with Worth.

My new 16" high raised beds (buried in the ground 6"), are empty and used primarily to keep the grass and weeds away from my plants (also to rest my arms on and help me get up).
I use a post hole digger and plant directly into the untilled soil. Last year was one of my best tomato years ever.

I may be "tilling" by mulching with partially finished compost. I usually put about 4" of leaf and manure compost around the tomatoes, mainly to conserve water.
My filled raised beds seem to have a serious problem with grubs and ants at this new location, so i am going back to how my mother gardened.